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Author Topic:   Ritualised cannibalism
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 51 (27287)
12-18-2002 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by TrueCreation
12-18-2002 9:53 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by TrueCreation:
[B]"I have a moral problem with cannibalism (symbolic or otherwise) except in certain survival situations. "
--Even if you do want to describe it as 'ritualised cannibalism' your conserned are refuted by the fact that there is no moral inacceptability since it is entirely subjective. 'In certain survival situations' what is a subjective form of symbolism going to have anything to do with the 'survival' of anything?
--Partaking in the ritual does not constitute eating his body or drinking his blood literally.
--I'd still like that reference.
Attend communion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2002 9:53 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2002 10:04 PM metatron has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 51 (27288)
12-18-2002 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by metatron
12-18-2002 10:02 PM


"Attend communion."
--I do it every single month, your post bares absolutely no resemblance and is even contradictive.
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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 12-18-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by metatron, posted 12-18-2002 10:02 PM metatron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by metatron, posted 12-18-2002 10:08 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 51 (27289)
12-18-2002 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by TrueCreation
12-18-2002 10:04 PM


In communion you eat+drink the sacrement, the sacrement being the "symbolic" blood and body of jc.
How much clearer can it be?.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2002 10:04 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2002 10:14 PM metatron has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 51 (27290)
12-18-2002 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by metatron
12-18-2002 10:08 PM


"In communion you eat+drink the sacrement, the sacrement being the "symbolic" blood and body of jc.
How much clearer can it be?."
--I don't disagree with this, and this is different from what you said in this post:
quote:
Its not symbolic if you actaully believe the rituals the sacrement is "transformed" into JC's blood and body. A devout believer who does not believe in the transformation is not a devout believer.
--This 'transformation' is false. The ritual is completely symbolic and I'm not eating a persons body nor drinking anyone's body, it is symbolic of an event. Taking part in the ritual constitutes your belief in the veracity of the event and its implications toward humanity.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by metatron, posted 12-18-2002 10:08 PM metatron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by metatron, posted 12-18-2002 10:21 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 51 (27292)
12-18-2002 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by TrueCreation
12-18-2002 10:14 PM


But that still means you take part in symbolic cannibalism. The fact that I'm no longer contesting the symbolic bit proves you've gained some ground.
But the main reason I'm not contesting the symbolic bit is because I have no faith in the effectiveness of the ritual of transmutation or whatever its called.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2002 10:14 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2002 10:28 PM metatron has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 51 (27294)
12-18-2002 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by metatron
12-18-2002 10:21 PM


"But that still means you take part in symbolic cannibalism. The fact that I'm no longer contesting the symbolic bit proves you've gained some ground.
But the main reason I'm not contesting the symbolic bit is because I have no faith in the effectiveness of the ritual of transmutation or whatever its called."
--Again, even if you want to call it 'symbolic cannibalism', 'our concerned are refuted by the fact that there is no moral inacceptability since it is entirely subjective.'
--There are no literal implications to communion. Its a reflection on the event of the crucifixion of Christ. Even symbolically we do not 'eat' his flesh. We eat the bread which symbolizes Christs death on the cross. It doesn't symbolize a cannibalistic event or anything of that likeness.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by metatron, posted 12-18-2002 10:21 PM metatron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by metatron, posted 12-18-2002 10:34 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 51 (27295)
12-18-2002 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by TrueCreation
12-18-2002 10:28 PM


The theory behind the ritual is that power in this case holiness is transferred from the eatee to the eater. Ignore the phrases that accompany it and simply observe the ritual itself. The symbolic flesh of jc or the real flesh of another tribesman, the belief system is no different.
[This message has been edited by Metatron, 12-18-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2002 10:28 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2002 10:47 PM metatron has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 51 (27296)
12-18-2002 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by metatron
12-18-2002 10:34 PM


"The theory behind the ritual is that power in this case holiness is transferred from the eatee to the eater. Ignore the phrases that accompany it and simply observe the ritual itself. The symbolic flesh of jc or the real flesh of another tribesman, the belief system is no different."
--Nothing is transferred. The ritual is done not to gain anything, it is done "in rememberence of me[Christ]". No cannibalism, symbolic or not. There is no moral inconsistency here.
-------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by metatron, posted 12-18-2002 10:34 PM metatron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by metatron, posted 12-18-2002 11:04 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 51 (27297)
12-18-2002 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by TrueCreation
12-18-2002 10:47 PM


If there is no link to cannibalism why eat it?.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2002 10:47 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2002 11:05 PM metatron has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 51 (27298)
12-18-2002 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by metatron
12-18-2002 11:04 PM


"If there is no link to cannibalism why eat it?."
--Because, taking part in the ritual constitutes your belief in the veracity of the event of Christs crucifixion and its implications toward humanity. Its a 'do this in remembrance of me' thing.
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 12-18-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by metatron, posted 12-18-2002 11:04 PM metatron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by metatron, posted 12-19-2002 2:01 AM TrueCreation has replied

  
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 51 (27307)
12-19-2002 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by TrueCreation
12-18-2002 11:05 PM


My whole point centres around the eating, without the eating the ritual means nothing. The action of eating brings you closer to your god (or gods), or transfers power to the eater. The "used to remember him by" bit is nothing more than part of the mystic writings that accompany the ritual. And the ritual itself is about growing closer to your deity of choice through consuming in this case the symbolic flesh and blood of one of the probably mythological characters who appears in a (badly translated and inaccurate) book.
I look at the ritual through an atheists eye's, not via the filter of religious programming. Its no more or less valid to me than the spinning of a prayer wheel or the shaking of knuckle bones by a witch doctor to drive out evil spirits.
But, drape as much expensive cloth on the alter and spout all the sermons you want the sacrificial offering is the symbolic flesh and blood of a man (who might have existed).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2002 11:05 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by TrueCreation, posted 12-19-2002 2:08 PM metatron has replied

  
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 51 (27315)
12-19-2002 3:44 AM


This is my body, this is my blood.
And arguments will reign over exactly what Jesus means here until the cows come home.
Be that as it may, Metatron, you're just rehashing an ancient Roman accusation against Christians.
We do not gain Christ's holiness by eating His body and His blood. He has promised that as partakers in this remembrance of Him, He will be present with us. The rubrics of the Church of England, for example, allow that someone who is unable to physically receive the elements is nonetheless a partaker in Christ's Body and Blood. Similarly, one who receives physically but does not do so inwardly is not a partaker in Christ's Body and Blood. Because of possible superstition about the elements in former days (which would be directly analogous to your cannibal analogy), where the elements were used, for example, to cast spells or ploughed into the ground to attempt to increase fertility, the rubrics also require that all the remaining consecrated elements are consumed by the priest after communion. The elements are not magic talismans.
Nevertheless, there is something to be gained from your comparison in the OP. Religion generally, and Christianity just as much, are full of allusion, symbolism, metaphor and so on. The idea that by eating something one gains something of the nature of the thing eaten is a common concept throughout humanity. Why not draw on that common human concept to illustrate spiritual feeding by God?

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by metatron, posted 12-19-2002 2:06 PM Karl has not replied

  
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 51 (27382)
12-19-2002 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Karl
12-19-2002 3:44 AM


You're right "you are what you eat" is a very common phrase. A worrying one as well if you're eating habits are as bad as mine. For instance we get fed a lot corned beef in the ccokhouse which we invariably refer to as "smashed monkey", spam is also known as "pink death".
The disposal of the extra sacrement via priests I find to be honest very similar to guarding nail parings, hair, excrement and such from the prying hands of voodoo magicians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Karl, posted 12-19-2002 3:44 AM Karl has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 51 (27383)
12-19-2002 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by metatron
12-19-2002 2:01 AM


"My whole point centres around the eating, without the eating the ritual means nothing. The action of eating brings you closer to your god (or gods), or transfers power to the eater. "
--Your still misunderstanding the fact that you are thinking that there is some sort of 'transfer of power'. There is none, it is done to remember his sacrifice. We do not 'gain' anything directly from doing the ritual. No cannibalism, or even symbolic cannibalism. I'm just reading the words, I'm not filtering it through anything. Jesus said, 'This is my body, this is my blood.' Though even at the time, he made it clear that he was holding bread and a drink, thusly it is symbolic.
-------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by metatron, posted 12-19-2002 2:01 AM metatron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by metatron, posted 12-19-2002 2:56 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 51 (27390)
12-19-2002 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by TrueCreation
12-19-2002 2:08 PM


So you are saying that jc said "remember me by eating this symbolic representation of my flesh and blood".
Thats still cannibalistic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by TrueCreation, posted 12-19-2002 2:08 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by TrueCreation, posted 12-19-2002 3:11 PM metatron has not replied
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 12-19-2002 3:21 PM metatron has not replied

  
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