History's Greatest Holocaust Via Atheistic Ideology

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It's called past appointments by Clinton and Carter. Yes, Reagan and Bush-1 also appointed Federal Judges. The rift over this issue has led to a practical stalemate of appointing judges.

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Then what the hell are you disagreeing with me for? The only thing I said is that the CURRENT MOVEMENT is to stock the courts with activist conservative judges. And this is true, and it is not stalemated completely as Bush just showed last week.I said quite clearly that this has gone on by both sides and is a bad thing.So why if it is such a bad thing to Bush is he for creating an amendment on one issue that he doesn't want affected by judges, instead of creating an amendment to end actvivist judgements in general?

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And regarding the presidential election, Gore was trying to reverse what happened, and to re-count to his advantage. Remember the military votes? Both sides used the legal system, and since Gore came out on the short end, he was the one who kept taking legal angles.

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You very very ignorant of what happened there.0-prologue) Before the election Republicans feared that Gore would win the electoral vote and Bush the popular one, and stated that the popular vote would show the real weight of voter's intent. And if it came down to a state dispute they said Gore better not waste time by going to the Supreme Court because VOTING ISSUES ought to be decided BY THE STATE. Ironically, Gore's camp said the electoral system is the rule and so if it turned out Bush got the pop vote but not the electoral one Gore would be the real winner. Heheheh... what was to follow was hypocracy on both sides, which I followed avidly both as a political news junkie and a concerned american.1) Complaints about voter disenfranchisement were rolling in before anyone knew that there would be a close vote. I believe it was even being recognized when Gore was still in the lead (remember it was called for him first).2) When the votes were estimated (remember these were not actually counted) the vote total was extremely close, with Bush winning. Given the number of complaints of disenfranchisement, especially the new ones regarding faulty ballots, there was a valid question of if the results were correct. I am uncertain why you think any of it had been definitive (even BUCHANAN backed up this charge).3) Jeb Bush and his election manager (who also happened to be a campaign manager for G Bush) decided not to review the process or the complaints. If you cannot see the conflict of interest in this, what can I say? So the complainants took their case to court. And remember their were two groups of disenfranchised voters.4) At this point the conservatives cranked up their press machine. First they lied about the nature of the ballot. They specifically chose as their example of a "butterfly ballot" the very one I had used to vote (choosing a chicago ballot as a dig on Daley's connection to Gore's campaign no doubt). It was of course NOT THE SAME. It was fun to watch reporters ask to see the ballot up close, or if it included the presidential candidates. Bush's punk did slight of hand to get it out of there until the end of the press conference, at which it reappeared in his hand as he marched off stage. At that point I knew something VERY BAD was about to happen. THEY LIED FIRST.5) Second they insisted (as they had going into the election) that Gore should not take it past the Florida State Supreme Court. This is in keeping with conservative tradition, so that did not surprise me at the time. Of course they also thought Jeb and the party had enough control of the court to get a win there. When they DID NOT, they reversed their own party's longstanding tradition of State's rights, and their NUMEROUS PROCLAMATIONS before the court gave its verdict, and then said they had to go to the SC, and that was their right and it was a good thing. THEY LIED SECOND.6) At the SC, conservative judges, including one whose own son wrote one of the briefs for the Florida voting trials (for Bush), reversed decades of their SC, their own, and their party's precedents to overrule and LEGISLATE VOTING LAWS for FLORIDA AND THE US. At this point it was unknown who would come out on top of a recount or a revote (not to mention the disenfranchised voters who still had their case but Gore was not backing at the moment, putting all attention on the faulty ballots). But the Republican party sure did show what they believed in... naked powerplays without any sense of consistency.7) After this installation of Bush by Republican members of the SC, some group eventually recounted those ballots. I think it turned out that Bush would still have won. But sometimes I hear differently. Since I DID NOT CARE ABOUT THE BALLOT ISSUE AS MUCH AS THE DISENFRANCHISEMENT CASE, I have not followed what it turned out to be. Anyone know?8) More than a year into the Bush presidency and unfortunately after 9-11 occured, the court case regarding the disenfranchised voters was completed. They HAD BEEN DISENFRANCHISED. THEY HAD BEEN CHEATED BY BAD ELECTION SYSTEM PROCESSES OPERATED BY JEB BUSH AND THE ELECTION MANAGER. It was not played up much because of what was going on at the time... war. Besides what would they do anyhow, remove the president after a year? As it is the SC said the default was to give the presidency to the man who seemed to be in the lead whether he turned out to be or not... oh yeah and also said that this should not be considered a precedent for future elections.Raspberries Thingschange. Total raspberries all around and especially on Bush and co.And before you start trying to make me out like I had some vested interest in how this turned out, I DID NOT VOTE FOR GORE. I HATE GORE. Well maybe hate is too strong a term. I disliked the man for well over a decade (when he was still in the legislature). I thought it was hilarious to see him squirming as he had to wrestle with what was happening.HOWEVER, this does not change the facts on the ground. From before the election started republicans disenfranchised specifically minority voters who were likely to vote democrat. If they had been allowed to have their voice... and remember it is official now that they had been cheated... Gore would have won. During and after the election Bush and co lied up a storm and reversed party policy on state's rights to get their man in.If you don't like these FACTS, then don't look. But whether you do or not, you definitely can't wave a flag and say Gore finagled his way through greasy legal maneuverings and anyway would never have won if all votes had been cast.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

(I am really excited, truly, to hear from someone who does not believe that Christianity is the Truth. Honestly, it is exciting to hear about why you are not convinced of His diety. So, first of all, thanks for your response.)I guess what I was really trying to get at is...do you think that telling a young girl born with AIDS that life is supposed to be about well...her happiness...that this would make their life bearable?What would you tell her as she cries to you? That life is all about what happens here and it sucks to be her because she had parents that weren't responsible with their sex lives? Will you tell her that maybe if her parents got educated about condoms things could have been better?I mean, education isn't going to help a girl dying from AIDS. (Medication could help her, yes, but education at this point is not going to help her deal with the pain of her reality.)Is her pain not real?Is the life that she has on this earth all that she has to live for?I guess it seems easy to be an athiest when you live in a country that functions for your own "pursuit of happiness." (Or is it...read below.)It is easy then to not believe in a God because you don't really need one? Right?That's great for you, but as a Christian, I can tell this girl that there is hope. That it isn't just about this life. That this life was meant for us to experience love - God's love.(Just as a side note: Did you know that the people that our loving these orphans are Christian missionaries? I personally know a young guy - 26 - who moved to Africa to start an orphanage to love each and every one of the children with this disease in his city. Their government doesn't want to deal with them. AND he is trying to work with our government to get medication for them. He has seen so many of them die, but it is because of his faith that he is loving them. If you want his web site I can give it to you.)And it doesn't need to be AIDS. It can be a friend who has everything - freedom, her health, a great marriage, healthy kids, etc. - but she is in such a depression because she sees no purpose in life. What would you tell her?

My husband is getting his master's degree in statistics and he confirmed that you are right - my arguments neither prove correlation nor cause.But, I tend to be more interested in qualitative data rather than quantitative data.Anyway, I guess I just want you to ask you : even in our own country where everyone is supposed to have equality and freedom and is supposed to be assured of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." What then would you tell someone who has it all - wealth, health, relationships - and they are still miserable. They feel life has no purpose or that they do not know how to make themselves happy.What if they find in themselves a need that nothing in this world can satisfy?What if what they need is purpose?And then, the reason I brought up the African orphan with AIDS is that she has no hope of a life with any of these things. DO you want to tell her that if only her parents had been educated then her life might have been better? If only we had better legislation that allowed for medication to be sent to help her (which is actually a TOTAL TRAGEDY) then things might be better?That's maybe going to help a different girl fifty years from now - but what about her life? What about this girl days away from death. What do you tell her?I know that my argument appeals to emotion and I will take that into account. But, it's fine and dandy to talk about legistlation and how more educated people have a better democracy and so on and so forth. But I am asking - how can we love her NOW. If the dictator in her city won't allow her access to the medication that the US just sent her. What does the missionary at her bedside tell her NOW? (ANd if you don't think that Christians have missionaries that are at this girls bedside right NOW I can give you web sites. ANd if you like you can visit her as a temporary missionary or you can send money to help feed her TODAY.)I am just curious how - as someone who does not believe in a GOd - how in the world do you deal with injustice? (Because even with our democracy BELIEVE ME injustice still happens EVERY DAY!)

I thought your response funny. NOt in a mean way, I just like your lightheartedness. In all honesty, it is true that there could be a large group of athiests hanging out anywhere. They are just the most vocal in America. I think you made the best point of anyone that responded.I just want to understand people who do not believe in a God more becasue I am purely interested. Since it seems that this is not an ideology that can be studied, the only way to try to relate to it is to talk with people who claim there is no God.The greater issue I am interested in is how one who does not believe in a GOd deals with the injustice done on our planet? Maybe I am overly sensitive, but I guess in my own life even over here in cushy AMerica I know so many people who quietly suffer using their success, health, weatlh to try to cover up the pain. They sense a need in their life that nothing in this world can fill.Not that athiesm or agnosticism might be able to fill this need, I just am ignorant of how.I am wondering - how?

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why you are not convinced of His diety

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Who? Which diety are you talking about, and if you are naming one then how are you not convinced of other deities?

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I can tell this girl that there is hope. That it isn't just about this life. That this life was meant for us to experience love - God's love.

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Love from the same God that gave her AIDs in the first place... I guess just so she can eperience suffering until she reaches that "other life" after she is dead?Why could she not be told the truth, and that in this life she can still experience love and care from other human beings? And perhaps she can meet and bond with others in her position so that she does not feel all alone.If she has faith than that appealing to religion might help (religion of whatever faith). I am uncertain why just because someone is suffering a God must be thrust at them. And I am doubly curious why you appear to feel it must be the Xian God as opposed to other religions foisted on that suffering kid. It appears selfish (imo) to see suffering people as pawns in your agenda.

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And it doesn't need to be AIDS. It can be a friend who has everything - freedom, her health, a great marriage, healthy kids, etc. - but she is in such a depression because she sees no purpose in life. What would you tell her?

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That she should spend some time trying to find what she does want, and not measure it with common material goals (as you listed). Obviously she desires something else. perhaps she does want a purpose "larger than herself". People can find such purposes without NECESSARILY moving to religion.If this person is suffering so much as you appear to suggest, I might mention Buddhism to her. They deal with reducing suffering in this life. Is there a reason that wouldn't help her?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Oh, I know very well that injustice happens. Bad things happen all the time.I believe that we have to do what we can with the world we have. I don't want to pass the buck along to someone else to take care of the injustices. We don't get another chance so we do as well as we can with what we have.It is up to me to act in a fashion that I am comfortable with. I don't do harm when I can avoid it and do what good I can. I don't do it because someone is watching over my shoulder to punish or reward me. I am the one who is watching.

Nonsense. Just think for a moment of all the gods that you don't believe in, and why you don't believe in them. You'll see that the only difference between you and I is one of degree - I disbelieve in one more god than you. By whatever means necessary. When injustice occurs to you, or to those you know, you fight it. When you can do nothing, you deal. Essentially, we do exactly what you Christians do - sometimes moreso, because we don't believe that there's some ultimate reckoning waiting in the next life - this life is all we know we have in which to fight injustice. With the realization that the only purpose in this life is the one you create for yourself. Which is pretty cool, if you ask me. It makes things much more interesting than a world where the only purpose is the one dictated by The Man Upstairs.

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I guess I just don't know of any large populations of athiests where millions of children are born with AIDS (Africa)

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I read the above as tinged with a kind of sarcasm, rather
than literally saying what it says.i.e. That he DOES know of a large pop of athiests where
millions of children are born with AIDS and that that is Africa.I freely admit I could be wrong in that interpretation though.

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It is easy then to not believe in a God because you don't really need one? Right?

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No. It's harder (in that sense) to live as an athiest, because
one does not have the crutch of an eternal reward after death.One has to accept the life that we have, whatever that is, head
on and deal with it without leaning on an irrational belief
system.We make our own choices, not those that we think our god
would approve of, so we cannot hold anyone but ourselves
accountable when things go awry.Athiesm isn't the easy road, adherence to a religous belief
system is.

I do not serve God so that I can be rewarded. In fact, if you look at the life of Christ - what was done to Him for living a perfect life? And how was Paul treated for His obedience? And what about the girl at Columbine High School that said she believed in God? What happened to her? Well, they were all killed for their faith. NOt exactly what I like to call a reward.I serve God because He is God. I serve God as an act of worship. He owes me nothing. I do not deserve reward.This does not mean that I am like the monks who would whip themselves. I do not seek out pain. But I do know that suffering brings about perserverance and perserverance brings about character.Have you ever considered that He created laws not to keep us from pleasure, but to protect us?Did you ever wonder why Jewish hospitals were so much more medically advanced than other hospitals? Because God ordained in the Old Testament that anyone who was exposed to blood wash their hands. This was WAY before civilization knew ANYTHING about germs. Why then did God tell his people to wash their hands when exposed to blood? BEcause He wanted to protect them. I look at all of God's laws as protection.Also, my salvation has nothing to do with my good works - nothing! Salvation only comes because I am covered in Christ's blood. This might sound gross, but if you look in the Old Testament in Leviticus, God makes a covenant with Abraham. He makes a promise to Him. In order to fulfill a covenant something must be killed. In this case many animals were sacrificed. In Leviticus God explains in detail how the blood must cover everything in the tabernacle. It is important that EVERTHING be covered in the blood. Again, God makes a promise to Moses in Exodus. He promises to free his people. Insodoing the people must take the blood of the lamb and cover their doors with it, hence, the passover. This was the only indication of being saved from the last and most deadly plague. Therefore, when I come before God he will not see me - he will see Christ. I don't get heaven because I was "good", I get the free gift of eternal life because of what Christ endured on the cross for me.But finally, the most awesome covenant that was made - the New Covenant of the New Testament was salvation for the world. THe only way that this covenant could be made is if there was a sacrifice. Christ was the sacrifice. ANd EVERYTHING that will be made new must be covered in His blood. In Revelation it says that there will be so much of Christ's blood that it will stop war horses in their tracks - that's a LOT of blood! It will fill an entire valley!In Galations 2:20 it says, "I have been crucified with CHrist and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. THe life I live in the body I live by faith in the son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me. This is my spiritual act of worship."The way that I worship God is through my life. If I am not a slave to God I am a slave to sin. Let me explain:I know that Braveheart was a mixture of many different beliefs, but if you want a modern-day understanding of why I live my life the way I do - watch the end of this movie. As "Braveheart" (I can't remember his historical name) is being tortured He is given one more time to choose not to be tortured, but to just be killed quickly - but only if he denonces all that He has lived. What is it that motivates him to be tortured to death? He looks out into the crowd and he sees his bride and then he cries, "Freedom!". That is what motivated Christ to die - He died for me and he died for you. And it was because He looked out into the crowd and he saw me and he saw you - and He said - they are worth dying for. This is freedom.I serve God because of that love. Not so that he'll bless me. In fact, most of life seems the other way around. Just read the story of Job. He was not totally upright the entire time. In fact, he finally said to God, "This isn't fair. I deserve a fair trial." Read the entire book of Job to see how GOd responds to him - it is VERY humbling!In the end, I see many injust people get reward and I see many upright people get nothing. I see Christians suffer and die. I had a missionary friend suffer from Cancer for months and then die tragically. God does not reward traditionally. His reward is in heaven - and in very non-traditional ways on this earth. But right now, I serve God because He has proven Himself faithful in my life. When I have chosen to do something that society would laugh at and judge, I feel a bit insecure and I am afraid - I am human, you know. But, in the end, even when it is totally scary to consider following God - when I do it, it is right. It maybe doesn't bring about wealth or health or even happiness - but it brings about joy (read Phillipians) and peace - a peace that sometimes I can't even understand.As for if I chose not to follow Christ, I would have no choice but to follow my sin. So many times in my life I have been on the brink of making a very bad choice. And sometimes I just made the bad choice. ( I want to clarify that I will never and I can never live perfectly - I am just as sinful as ANYONE "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23) To the world these choices might seem like good choices. They may laugh at me and say, "Why was that a bad choice." Inevitably it is because I was a slave to sin. What does this mean? When I must follow my passions (bad ones, there are good ones, too!) and must follow my desires (same thing as passions) I don't take into consideration other people's feelings, I am unable to truly experience the selflessnes of love.CHrist lived a totally selfless life, "ALthough we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Try thinking about this one when you are unhappy with your significant other. Believe me, it definitely goes against the grain to love someone even when they aren't loving you back.(ANd plese disassociate me from hatemongering Christians. I believe that God's Word is Truth. But I cannot judge or God will judge me. ANd I must show mercy and I must sacrifice even to those who find my faith disgusting. I only want to love. ANd sometimes I know as a Christian I am not very good at doing that. FOr that I will be judged - for there are two seats of judgement - one for my salvation and the other for my reward. If I have done tons of missions but never done them purely as an act of worship to God - they will be worthless to God. )

Christ delt with injustice very differently. He didn't fight it. This approach is very confusing to the world that we live in.He did not arrive on a white stallion but on a donkey.Even so, just like a general after a winning battle stands above the battlegrounds and yells to his troups in vitory, "It is finished!" SImilarly, as Christ hung naked on the cross His last words were, "It is finished!" An interesting way to fight injustice - and interesting way to win a battle.I don't even totally grasp it. TO me, His life, death, and ressurection is mindboggling!

So when Christ chose to die on the cross for our sins - this was so much easier than an athiest who could have dogged out? Christ asked God to take the cup from Him. He did not want to die on the cross. He did it to honor God. That was the only reason. This was the easier choice?And Thomas Beckett, in being chosen by his best friend King Henery II of England - when he (once being Henry's drinking buddy) chose to start following God and as a result he was murdered by his best friend in a church - this was the easier choice?And Paul, a successful Jewish scholar. He was like a Bill CLinton of the day. He was respected, he was smart, he had it all! When he chose to start following Christ and then he was crucified upside down - this was easier!ANd Mother Teresa, who chose to live in the slums, to feed the poor and live with them - only to honor Christ - this was easier?ANd Jim Elliott, the missionary who was murdered by South Africans. WHen his wife Elizabeth came into the tribe and forgave them for killing her husband so they would know Christ - this was easier? (By the way, to this day her children call their dad's murderer "Grandpa.")And the Columbine High School girl who said that she believed in God and they shot her for it - this was the easier choice?I could go on. I am having a hard time understanding how following your own path is so much harder? You really don't think that you will only have your own selfish intersts in mind?

When I put the message out about how to help a young girl dying from AIDS, it was interesting that the only thing that anyone cared to respond to were my comments not related to her.Let me include an except from the Atlantic Monthly about how education is helping our world to seem better but not to be better, how following your own good path is making us neglect the tragic element of life - that evil cannot be cured by therapy or science and that instead life is finding your own happiness and not realizing that indoing so it is impossible not to hurt others.
It is taken from an article called "The Organization Kid" (Atlantic Monthly, April 2001) and it is about young adults attending Princeton and other Ivy League Schools," Princeton doesn't hate America. It reflects America. ANd in the most ways it reflects the best of America. After all, as people kpet reminding me, these are some of the best and brightest young people our schools have to offer. They have woven their way through the temptations of adolesence and have benifited from all the nurturing and instruction and opportunities with which the country has provided them. They are responsible, they are generous. They are bright. THey are good-natured. BUt they live in a country that has lost, in its frenetic seeking after happiness and success, the language of sin and character-building through combat with sin. Evil is seen as something that can be cured with better education, or therapy, or Prozac. Instead of virtue we talk about accomplishment.
Maybe the lives of the meritocrats are so crammed because the stakes are so small. ALl this ambition and aspiration is looking for new tests to ace, new clubs to be president of, new services to perform, but finding that none of these challenges is the ultimate challenge, and that none of the rewards is the ultimate reward."Is just trying to live a life where you do good really ever enough?I want to live life for more than a feeling, for more than a name, for more than a cause........how can we REALLY help this little girl?

Christ most definitely is my crutch. Actually, he's my entire body cast. I have been reborn. He is my life. The only reason I don't live a pure life is because I keep thinking that I am not wearing a body cast. I keep thinking that I don't need Him -that's how deep my sinful nature runs (and I've been a Christian from 10 years!).As for believing in Christ being irrational. Sure it is! CHrist was not just a nice guy. He asked people to leave their homes. ANd back then it wasn't like - oh, you're moving to San Francisco - here's some brochures. He asked people to sell all they own. ANd back then there weren't any insurance companies. He told people to not judge lest you be judged (even when faced with horrible injustice - worse then abortion or murder or anything we experince today.) Christ is amazing to me - and believing in someone who wins a battle by hanging naked on a cross - well that just totally doesn't make sense.Unless you have experienced His love, His joy, and His peace. THen, it makes all the sense in the world.

Gosh, I guess I'm familiar with a different depiction of Jesus - a man who braided a rope into a whip to drive corruption from the temple. A man who stood against a murderous mob to stop a miscarriage of justice. A man who brought not peace, but a sword. And yes, a man who had the wisdom to turn the other cheek when fighting a battle would have done more harm than good.But it's a mistake to say that Jesus doesn't fight. The message of Jesus isn't to sit on your ass and fuck about while bad things happen around you and say "woe is them". The message of Jesus is to never turn your back when you have the opportunity and the means to help. Jesus was a doer. Jesus is the ultimate atheist, in a way. That's what bothers me about Christians, and Mel Gibson's movie, and ultimately what may have driven me from the faith. You're so much more concerned about his death and your own salvation than in following the teachings in the stories about his life. That kind of selfish theology makes it all to easy to write off the suffering of others as incedental to your own concerns about the afterlife.