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Author Topic:   Free will but how free really?
Suspended Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002

Message 18 of 182 (483678)
09-23-2008 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Stile
09-22-2008 3:33 PM

Re: It's not going to be easy...
In courts of law, if a suspect acts freely then they are generally held accountable for their actions, but if not acting freely then they would generally not be held accountable.
So basically we do differentiate between acting freely and being forced all the time. Obviously I would never want you to be judge at my trial, or anybody who doesn't understand freedom.
I suggest if you want to learn something about it, you should just take the knowledge about it seriously. I mean quite clearly you are all just meandering, you can't reasonably expect to gain some basic understanding this way.
And being serious means to formalize, generalize, and cut down to essential parts your ideas about freedom. There shouldn't be any problem with this, except motivational problems, that you don't want to know.
Very learned scientists / intellectuals are confused about alternatives being in the future, or in the present. But that issue seems to me more like a slight hobble to take intellectually rather then the conundrum they make it out to be. So I think knowledge about freedom is not about being a genius, the basics of it are very much more easy then calculus, it is about wanting to know it. How do you get that motivation. Obviously you all don't have it, and that's why you are meandering.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Stile, posted 09-22-2008 3:33 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by bluescat48, posted 09-23-2008 7:01 PM Syamsu has not replied

Suspended Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002

Message 44 of 182 (483880)
09-24-2008 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Agobot
09-24-2008 4:29 PM

Re: This will spill over many topics but...
Yes Cavediver knows hyperincursive mathematics, he should be able to explain a bit. Hyperincursive math is the kind of math able to deal with choosing. In this kind of math the formula is itself an actor. So the formula is not so much for describing a thing, it is saying that a formula is an informationprocessor and that things (like rocks or anything) are too information processors. Information about past, present and future states, and then by the formula this information is processed, and the formula also processes the formula itself.
(from Review of Incursive, Hyperincursive and Anticipatory Systems - Foundation of Anticipation in Electromagnetism, Daniel M Dubois)
"6.1 Free Will as Unpredictable Hyperincursive Anticipation
Karl Pribram asked me (by email, after the CASYS'99 conference):
"How can an anticipatory hyperincursive system be modeled without a
future defined goal?".
My answer was: an hyperincursive anticipatory system generates
multiple potential states at each time step and corresponds to one-to-
many relations. A selection parameter must be defined to select a
particular state amongst these multiple potential states. These
multiple potential states collapse to one state (amongst these
states,) which becomes the actual state.
This reminds me the following comment an auditor made after a
conference on anticipatory hyperincursion I made:
"You have found the basic theory of free will".Indeed, the brain may
be considered as an anticipatory hyperincursive neural net which
generates multiple potential future states which collapse to actual
states by learning: the selection process of states to be actualized
amongst the multiple potential states is independent of
the fundamental dynamics of the brain, independent of initial
conditions and so completely unpredictable (and computable). The
selection by learning deals with inputs from the brain itself (via the
genetic code and self-reflection) and from environment. These inputs
are final causes at each time step. This creates a memory and at the
same time a program, which give rise to the mind, what I called a
computing memory. Each mind is unique in the sense that this is the
subjective experience of each brain that actualized potential states.
The free will means that we can choose a state amongst the multiple
potential states emerging from the preceding already actualized
states. The free will depends strongly on the history of all the past
memorized events and is not identical for each mind. The free will
does not means that the mind can make what he wants but that he can
choose amongst multiple possible choices. For a human being, this is
not possible to fly by itself, like a bird, but man invented airplanes
to actualize that."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Agobot, posted 09-24-2008 4:29 PM Agobot has not replied

Suspended Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002

Message 52 of 182 (484107)
09-26-2008 2:52 PM

So far in this thread a dozen or so unanswered questions were raised about freedom, and nothing was established. The result is that the knowledge about freedom of the evolutionists that posted is an even bigger mess then it was at the start of the thread.
These people are ofcourse destroying knowledge about freedom, because subconsciously they don't like the link between freedom and the spiritual realm.
Creationist science on the other hand has crispy clear logic about freedom. Creationism helps judges and jurors distinguish between free and forced behaviour of defendants and witnesses, Evolution theory makes the issue a mess in people's minds.

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