Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Fate or Freewill?
:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7184 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 16 of 27 (93292)
03-19-2004 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Jack
03-19-2004 4:44 AM


Mr Jack writes:
The past is determined, does that mean we had no free will in the past?
It means we no longer have the free will to determine the past. When the events that are now in our past were in our future, they were undetermined, and so we had the free will to act upon the available possible futures.
Knowing the future merely means that god knows what choice we will make...
Knowing the future inerrantly means that God knows what path we must take. If one cannot choose an alternative path, then s/he does not have free will. Perhaps we mean different things by "free will"?
...that doesn't imply that we didn't make the choice of our own freewill.
If it is impossible for God's knowledge to be in error, then no alternatives exist to that which God knows. If I have no alternatives, then I don't have free will.
In order not to have freewill we would have to be co-erced into making the choice by things beyond our control, determinism does not imply this.
Yes, it does. "Control" means that the decider affects the future by his/her choice. If the future is set, then there is no choice since a choice of only one possible outcome is not a choice at all.
In fact, god knowing the future doesn't imply determinism either...
How can God know the future without first determining what that future is? I don't see how the future can be known and indeterminate at the same time.
...anymore than someone having a time machine does.
I don't see how this is relevant. Can you clarify?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Dr Jack, posted 03-19-2004 4:44 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Dr Jack, posted 03-19-2004 5:45 AM :æ: has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 17 of 27 (93293)
03-19-2004 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by :æ:
03-19-2004 5:37 AM


Knowing the future inerrantly means that God knows what path we must take. If one cannot choose an alternative path, then s/he does not have free will. Perhaps we mean different things by "free will"?
By free will I mean that our actions are ultimately determined by ourselves. Alternatives do not come into it. Derivations of free will based on alternatives are Philosophically thorny - how can we know whether or not there was an alternative? If we would choose the same alternative if the same events were run again is it really an alternative? etc.
How can God know the future without first determining what that future is? I don't see how the future can be known and indeterminate at the same time.
Why cannot we determine the future and god simply know what we will do?
I don't see how this is relevant. Can you clarify?
Imagine I have a time machine and travel ten years into the future, I now know what will happen in that time (or a small subset thereof) does this mean than everyone at the time I travelled from now no longer has freewill?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by :æ:, posted 03-19-2004 5:37 AM :æ: has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by TechnoCore, posted 03-19-2004 7:51 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 27 (93312)
03-19-2004 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tgrmst
03-17-2004 9:14 PM


roll the dice
tgrmst,
When I roll a die, I know that I will get one of six faces showing, but I don't know which one. Similarly, God knows all the outcomes of our choices, but He doesn't know which one we will make. That's how we have limited free will.
God didn't know what Adam and Eve would do in the Garden, and was deeply grieved by their choice. But He knew what they might do, and had a plan by which it could be redeemed. Anyone who has been a parent, with band-aids in the medicine chest knows about this.
The PEAR Laboratory at Princeton has exhaustively demonstrated the effect of free will on objects, including random radioactive decay.
You can, by making choices, definately change the future. Because many of the choices you make, and many more that you refuse to make, result in terror and horror all over the world, you deserve a lot of punishment. These evil choices are mostly made in ignorance, but "ignorance of the law is no excuse" and the choice to stay ignorant, to "ignore" the evidence available to you, is the choice that brings severe judgement down on you, or down on Yeshua or Jesus, if you accept His suffering on your behalf.
Jehovah, in the bible, has set out before men seven things to choose, or not: Life or Death, Truth or Lie, Law or Lawlessness, Service to God or Service to Some Idol, Fearing God or Not Fearing God, Favor among Men or Riches, a Good Name or Political Power. The choice is made by testimony, Saying "I choose ..." whatever you are ready to accept responsibility for.
To choose to not choose brings down the well-deserved wrath of God.
Change the future for good. Or take the blame for the evil that comes instead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tgrmst, posted 03-17-2004 9:14 PM tgrmst has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 19 of 27 (93392)
03-19-2004 4:33 PM


what I find bizare is many Christens claim we have free will but claim things "were meant to be" Does that make sense to you?

  
Chris
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 27 (93420)
03-19-2004 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by DC85
03-18-2004 8:00 PM


quote:
Chris that post makes 0 sense.... If God knows the outcome of everything is Predetermined therefore there is NO free will...
Let's think that the story is not about God, but you with time machine and Bob.
Whether what Bob will say, you can just use the time machine to go to the future and see what he will choose for his drink. Bob still has his free will, but his free will is useless for you because you have time machine. For Bob..he can change his mind 1000 times but you can just use your time machine.
quote:
what was the point of giving Adam and Eve the chance to obey in the first place? He knew darn well they would sin so why even let them in the garden? If they were Put in the imperfect world in the first place... they wouldn't know the difference?
I think if God didn't put them in the garden for the first place, there would be no free will for Adam & Eve.
And maybe also to let us know the story about original sin and how the world changed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by DC85, posted 03-18-2004 8:00 PM DC85 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Asgara, posted 03-19-2004 7:19 PM Chris has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 21 of 27 (93422)
03-19-2004 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Chris
03-19-2004 7:08 PM


You can't use an analogy of regular people. If god is omniscient and omnipotent then free will can not exist.
Bob, with his time machine, is NOT omni anything.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Chris, posted 03-19-2004 7:08 PM Chris has not replied

  
TechnoCore
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 27 (93426)
03-19-2004 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Jack
03-19-2004 5:45 AM


quote:
Why cannot we determine the future and god simply know what we will do?
Are you serious ?
Who did make you ? God.
What did he give you ? Free will.
What does he know? Everything that will happen.
So.. He knows all your actions before you've done them, and he CREATED you. Then every action you will ever make is just directly dependant on what what he created initially. So creating you, in the way you are, he already made all the choices you will ever make. For you.
That, is NOT free will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Dr Jack, posted 03-19-2004 5:45 AM Dr Jack has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-20-2004 3:06 AM TechnoCore has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 27 (93475)
03-20-2004 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by TechnoCore
03-19-2004 7:51 PM


I have to say, I'm with Mr Jack on this one, although I've completely revised my thinking on this in the last few years.
What got me thinking was whether there was any difference between "free-will" and what I suppose you would call the illusion of free will. Do we really need an external observer looking back at our actions at some point in the future to tell us whether we have free will or not?
I'm not going to get into a full and complete definition of free will, as that's too difficult, but let's pretend that you have 2 identical universes (Universe A and Universe B), except for the fact that Universe A contains one omniscient being, who keeps herself hidden. If you were to meet your doppelganger in the other Universe, would there be any point in trying to determine which of you actually had free will, and which of you merely had the illusion of free will? Or do we keep the word "freewill" to mean some fancy hi-falutin' idealistic notion that can never be measured or even discussed meaningfully?
Now, don't get me wrong, there is a problem with free will and omniscience if the omniscient being comes into contact with an individual (as in Newcomb's paradox), but I don't see any paradox as long as the ominscient being never meets an individual and tells them what they're about to do.
Artistic originality, on the other hand, is a real problem in a Universe with an omniscient being... difficult to believe God wouldn't have sat down (with a toke?) to chill out listening to an Orbital album before setting about making the Universe and mankind and stuff...which kinda means that music (and by extension all other creative art) is discovered rather than created.
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by TechnoCore, posted 03-19-2004 7:51 PM TechnoCore has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Angeldust, posted 03-20-2004 11:02 AM Primordial Egg has replied
 Message 26 by TechnoCore, posted 03-21-2004 4:17 PM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 27 (93495)
03-20-2004 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Primordial Egg
03-20-2004 3:06 AM


but I don't see any paradox as long as the ominscient being never meets an individual and tells them what they're about to do.
Out of curiosity than do you think that Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians who believe that God still talks to his people prophetically today be in a paradox if they believe in free will? Can we entertain that question as a "What if" without going into whether Prophecy today is true or not?
I mean, most prophecy isn't like "Your going to go to the mall today and a little old lady with a shopping cart is going to run you over." Perhaps part of the reason that it isn't that specific is because God is not playing with our free will. It's just a thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-20-2004 3:06 AM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-20-2004 2:02 PM Angeldust has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 27 (93520)
03-20-2004 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Angeldust
03-20-2004 11:02 AM


Out of curiosity than do you think that Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians who believe that God still talks to his people prophetically today be in a paradox if they believe in free will? Can we entertain that question as a "What if" without going into whether Prophecy today is true or not?
Is this a bit like asking "ah, but what really happens when you find the town where the barber shaves everyone who don't shave themselves? Who really does shave the barber?"
I'm afraid I know next to nothing about Pentecostal or Charismatic Christians and their particular flavour of belief. If we had an omniscient being who interacted with humans and told them stuff like "I know that you're about to freely choose A out of choices A,B or C in the next ten seconds or so", then yes, I do think this pretty much dispels any notion of free-will in my limited understanding of the word.
Like you say though, not many faiths have God acting like that, all the prophecies I know of tend to be along along the lines of "and ye this great happening shall come to pass and there will be much smiting..." which doesn't really affect free-will at all, as far as I can see, so I agree with you there.
Having said all that, I don't have a very firm grasp of whatever free will is, which is why I'm loathe to attempt to define it. I mean, how far down the food chain does free-will stop (I assume plants don't have free will but, say, cattle do)? Do ants have free will? And what of the effects of advertising and propaganda on our free will? Does it affect free will at all? And what about the recent experiments which show a surge in brain activity before a conscious free-will decision is made - who or what is making the surge in brain activity happen?
I don't know the answers to these questions but they lead me to think that free will is one of those concepts like "time", "life" or "consciousness", which seem trivial to use (in everyday terms) but are in fact, incredibly slippery to define. I do know that any definition of free will that makes sense to me, also allows for an omniscient being (as long as they never tell you what you're about to choose).
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Angeldust, posted 03-20-2004 11:02 AM Angeldust has not replied

  
TechnoCore
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 27 (93694)
03-21-2004 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Primordial Egg
03-20-2004 3:06 AM


quote:
If you were to meet your doppelganger in the other Universe, would there be any point in trying to determine which of you actually had free will, and which of you merely had the illusion of free will?
Not for me no, thats true. I agree with you on that. But it does make God a quite horrible chap doesn't it? He creates me into a beeing who he knows will make the choice of not beliving in him, and therefore I'll be sent to hell for eternal suffering. Thats sadistic. Or how else could it be interpreted?
quote:
Artistic originality, on the other hand, is a real problem in a Universe with an omniscient being... difficult to believe God wouldn't have sat down (with a toke?) to chill out listening to an Orbital album before setting about making the Universe and mankind and stuff...which kinda means that music (and by extension all other creative art) is discovered rather than created.
Haven't thought about that
But unless you belive there is a ultimate beauty, in a way like Platon's real world, then beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No?
Which then again is up to free will... or whatever...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-20-2004 3:06 AM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5585 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 27 of 27 (93874)
03-22-2004 3:10 PM


If you read my post in 'Time machine' you will realise that as time is extant [we live moment by moment] simple logic concludes that as there really is no 'future' there can be no blind fate. [pre-destiny]
However, because we are creatures of habit and we rely on structure to ease the mass of information we take in thru our senses we can to some extent sway the events that in time we will pass through, to many this will seem like 'fate', but it is not it really is just free will constrained by our own freely acted upon will.

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024