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Author Topic:   We youth at EvC are in Moral Decline
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 253 (51806)
08-22-2003 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Rrhain
08-22-2003 5:34 AM


Re: I agree with buzsaw.
quote:
Is there a non-smoking bar they can go to?
Irrelevant. There's no Indian restaurant in my area, but I don't have the right to demand that the local Chinese place start serving Indian food.
quote:
If not, then yes, they are coerced into visiting a bar filled with smoke.
No they're not. They don't have to go to a bar at all. They might not like that, but they don't have the right to a bar they'll enjoy.
quote:
A bar is not a smoking club.
Keep repeating it. It might become true.
Do you have anything to say about the reasoning I gave which disagrees with this statement?
quote:
Since your smoking causes death in other people, they have every right to ask you to refrain from engaging in that behaviour which puts other people at significant, non-trivial risk.
By entering a bar which allows smoking, they made the choice to sit in a room full of smoke. If they don't like it, they're free to go elsewhere.
Again... I can't stroll into Wok 'n Roll and demand a chicken tikka masala. Whether I can get a chicken tikka masala elsewhere makes no difference. If I decide to eat there anyway, nobody's forcing me to have general tsao's chicken.
quote:
You've seemingly forgotten the economic climate in which the bar exists. What the owner wants may very well be irrelevant.
What the owner allows, however, is very much relevant. And the owner is, ultimately, the only one who can force himself to do anything.
quote:
What rancor? Be specific.
Your posts came off as rude and aggressive. If you really want, I can go back through and lift examples. But I'd rather tone things back and we can all just be civil from now on, if that's amenable to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2003 5:34 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 212 of 253 (52028)
08-24-2003 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Dan Carroll
08-21-2003 3:03 PM


Re: I agree with buzsaw.
quote:
You're not much fun at a bar, are you? I mean... if you're trying to suggest the only purpose of a bar is to serve you a drink and then clear you on your way, you can't be much of a bar guy.
I think that the purpose of a bar is to get together with friends, have a drink, and hang out.
I have many non-smoking friends and we constantly bemoan the fact that there is no such thing as a non-smoking bar in our community.
I enjoy having an occasional drink, and I love to hang out, but I rarely do so at a bar anymore because I can't stand the smoke.
I used to go to out dancing, too, but I can't bring myself to do so anymore because I feel like I am trying to perform an aerobic workout in the middle of a burning building.
Anyway, more and more non-smoking bars and nightclubs are popping up all over the country, and I and a bunch of my friends will be very pleased.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-21-2003 3:03 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-24-2003 5:06 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 213 of 253 (52029)
08-24-2003 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Dan Carroll
08-21-2003 4:44 PM


quote:
Get your nose out of my face, you won't get hit
Hold on a minute.
I know you put a smiley face at the end of this statement, but there is a real point here.
Are you saying that your right to smoke supercedes my right to breathe smoke-free air?
So, if you decide to smoke in a public place (where there are lots of people and you don't know how many people around you mind if you smoke) and I don't like it (maybe I'm preganant or have asthma, or I just want to avoid the second-hand smoke), I'm the one who has to move away from you?
Why should I be the one to go have to find clean air when you are the polluter who has invaded the available clean air around me?
(I'd like to mention that this happens all the time)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-21-2003 4:44 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-24-2003 5:02 PM nator has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 253 (52051)
08-24-2003 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by nator
08-24-2003 9:33 AM


I already answered the majority of this when Rrhain asked it. But to sum up...
quote:
Why should I be the one to go have to find clean air when you are the polluter who has invaded the available clean air around me?
If you are in a bar which allows smoking, then you have intentionally gone to a smoke-filled area. The smoke-filled area has not come to you. Nobody invaded anything around you.
That's your call. If you don't want to be in a smoke-filled area, don't seek one out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by nator, posted 08-24-2003 9:33 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by kjsimons, posted 08-24-2003 5:34 PM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 222 by nator, posted 08-25-2003 10:21 AM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 253 (52052)
08-24-2003 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by nator
08-24-2003 9:22 AM


Re: I agree with buzsaw.
quote:
I have many non-smoking friends and we constantly bemoan the fact that there is no such thing as a non-smoking bar in our community.
I constantly bemoan the fact that there is no Indian restaurant in my community. I love Indian food.
So?
quote:
Anyway, more and more non-smoking bars and nightclubs are popping up all over the country, and I and a bunch of my friends will be very pleased.
Cool, I hope that works out for you. It's always nice when a business you enjoy opens right near you. A Borders just opened up near my apartment, and that graphic novel section is gonna clean out my bank account...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by nator, posted 08-24-2003 9:22 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by nator, posted 08-25-2003 10:25 AM Dan Carroll has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 216 of 253 (52053)
08-24-2003 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Dan Carroll
08-24-2003 5:02 PM


If you are in a bar which allows smoking, then you have intentionally gone to a smoke-filled area. The smoke-filled area has not come to you. Nobody invaded anything around you.
What dazzling logic, not! I remember when smoking was allowed everywhere. Airplanes, buses, trains, restaurants, restrooms, everywhere except fuel depots and explosives factories. By your logic, in those days my wanting to eat out, take a plane, train or bus trip, or even just go to the bathroom meant that I chose to go into a smoke-filled area, so it's my own fault. The only reason there are non-smoking areas now it government intervention because smokers felt entitled to smoke everywhere no matter what. More than 60% of the US adult population doesn't smoke so why is it that the 30 some percent think the majority should stuff it.
Smokers should only smoke if nobody within breathing distance minds (~30 feet). If anyone minds, then don't smoke. I sorry to hear that you are addicted to nicotine and I hope you don't die of lung cancer but you have no moral right to continue to smoke in the presence of non-smokers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-24-2003 5:02 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-24-2003 6:57 PM kjsimons has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 253 (52058)
08-24-2003 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by kjsimons
08-24-2003 5:34 PM


quote:
I remember when smoking was allowed everywhere. Airplanes, buses, trains, restaurants, restrooms, everywhere except fuel depots and explosives factories. By your logic, in those days my wanting to eat out, take a plane, train or bus trip, or even just go to the bathroom meant that I chose to go into a smoke-filled area, so it's my own fault.
Frankly, yeah. Assuming it's not your plane, bus, train, restaurant, or bathroom.
If it isn't, I'd much rather leave it up to the owner of the plane, bus, train, restaurant, or bathroom to decide.
If you don't like their decision, tough luck. Just like if the owner of any of these things decides I can't smoke there, tough luck for me.
It's when the government steps in and makes the decision for the owner that I get pissed off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by kjsimons, posted 08-24-2003 5:34 PM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by kjsimons, posted 08-24-2003 8:04 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 218 of 253 (52064)
08-24-2003 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Dan Carroll
08-24-2003 6:57 PM


Frankly, yeah. Assuming it's not your plane, bus, train, restaurant, or bathroom.
What a hoot, it's my fault that a bunch of smokers can't control their desire to smoke, so I have to breath cancerous air if I decide to go out in public. You're denying any culpability. So, as a smoker it's okay to poison people. Little kids, grandmas, your friends, anybody, just because you smoke. You are one selfish person, but unfortunately you're not alone. Most smokers are every bit as selfish as you and I guess the non-smokers only recourse is to get the government to ban smoking in all public places because you guys just don't know how to behave properly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-24-2003 6:57 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-24-2003 8:26 PM kjsimons has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 253 (52067)
08-24-2003 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by kjsimons
08-24-2003 8:04 PM


Rather than repeat the entire thread, I'd much rather advise you to go re-read it. You ignored an awful lot of stuff. For instance, I don't remember saying anything about "out in public." Just private institutions.
Of course, if you want is to toss some more insults, lemme know. I'll take off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by kjsimons, posted 08-24-2003 8:04 PM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by kjsimons, posted 08-24-2003 8:43 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 220 of 253 (52069)
08-24-2003 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Dan Carroll
08-24-2003 8:26 PM


I don't remember saying anything about "out in public." Just private institutions.
You were talking about a bar that was open to the public. That is, a public place with private ownership. Now in a private club, not open to the public, they can and do have more leeway in how things can be done.
Of course, if you want is to toss some more insults, lemme know. I'll take off.
Listen I'm not tossing around insults, I made an observation that you are obviously being selfish for not caring about the harm that you are inflicting on others by smoking in their presence. Everybody will die if they don't breath, nobody will die from not smoking. So breathing trumps smoking, so no public smoking should be allowed. Simple. You may not like it but you have no moral defense for smoking around other people without their permission.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-24-2003 8:26 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-24-2003 9:14 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 221 of 253 (52071)
08-24-2003 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by kjsimons
08-24-2003 8:43 PM


quote:
You were talking about a bar that was open to the public.
But not owned by the public. It's that simple.
As I said earlier in the thread, I really don't like repeating myself. If you have something new to say, lemme know. If not, post away. I just won't bother responding.
In the meantime, I think I'll head over to McDonalds and demand that they serve me a lamb vindaloo. I've got a real hankering for a lamb vindaloo. And since they're open to the public, they must owe me the type of service I want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by kjsimons, posted 08-24-2003 8:43 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 222 of 253 (52126)
08-25-2003 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Dan Carroll
08-24-2003 5:02 PM


quote:
If you are in a bar which allows smoking, then you have intentionally gone to a smoke-filled area. The smoke-filled area has not come to you. Nobody invaded anything around you.
That's your call. If you don't want to be in a smoke-filled area, don't seek one out.
I'm not talking about a bar. I tend to lean towards agreeing with you specifically about the bar/smoking issue. Bars are well-known to be places where people go to smoke and drink. Basically, it's where we go to consume all the legal recreational drugs.
I'm talking about public places and public gatherings in general, though.
Do you believe that if you feel like smoking while in a crowd at a concert or an outdoor festival, for example, and there is no specific ban on smoking but no "tradition" or "expectation" of being around smoke like at a bar, that everyone else should be required to move away from your smoke if they don't want to breathe or smell it, rather than you having to move away from everybody else before you light up?
Imagine you had a machine strapped to your body that emitted low-concentration poisonous (but pleasure-producing for you) gas which can reach many feet around you. It is well known and well documented that exposure to this gas causes illness, possibly deadly, in some people when they are exposed to it over time. Not to mention it smells really bad and makes other people's eyes, nose and throat burn.
Are you saying that it is your right to emit this poison gas regardless of who is around you and if they want to be exposed to this poison gas or not?
Are you saying that the government should not act to keep you from emitting this poison gas in office buildings, restaurants, busses, airplanes, airports, hospitals, movie theaters, etc.?
Smoke-free air is the default.
You have no right to turn me into a smoker against my will just because you want to smoke and I happen to be near you.
That's why smoking is banned in most public places regardless of private ownership.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-25-2003]
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-25-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-24-2003 5:02 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-25-2003 10:34 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 223 of 253 (52127)
08-25-2003 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Dan Carroll
08-24-2003 5:06 PM


Re: I agree with buzsaw.
quote:
I constantly bemoan the fact that there is no Indian restaurant in my community. I love Indian food.
So?
This isn't a direct analogy.
A more direct one would be if there were lots of Indian restaurants in your community but they all allowed smoking and were constantly filled with smoke.
This would mean that you would be fine with going to the Indian restaurant but I would avoid it because I can't stand the smoke.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-24-2003 5:06 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-25-2003 10:37 AM nator has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 253 (52128)
08-25-2003 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by nator
08-25-2003 10:21 AM


quote:
Do you believe that if you feel like smoking while in a crowd at a concert or an outdoor festival, for example, and there is no specific ban on smoking but no "tradition" or "expectation" of being around smoke like at a bar, that everyone else should be required to move away from your smoke if they don't want to breathe or smell it, rather than you having to move away from everybody else before you light up?
It's a tough question. My self-interest says, "YEAH! YEAH, I DO! THINK SO!" But honestly, logically, no. If I'm in a crowd of people, I move away from the crowd before lighting up.
In other words, I'll still smoke a cigarette, but I don't see the point in getting in everyone's face with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by nator, posted 08-25-2003 10:21 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by nator, posted 08-25-2003 11:06 AM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 253 (52129)
08-25-2003 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by nator
08-25-2003 10:25 AM


Re: I agree with buzsaw.
quote:
A more direct one would be if there were lots of Indian restaurants in your community but they all allowed smoking and were constantly filled with smoke.
This would mean that you would be fine with going to the Indian restaurant but I would avoid it because I can't stand the smoke.
I don't see the difference. One service or another. The service I'm looking for is bars and restaurants that allow you to smoke. It's part of the reason I live in the neighborhood I'm in; you're allowed to smoke just about anywhere. Go twenty minutes north, that won't be the case.
In the case of my previous example, the service I'm looking for is Indian food. Some will let me smoke, some won't. If they won't, the Indian food will probably be enough of a draw to get me in the door anyway. If they will... damn, I've found my restaurant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by nator, posted 08-25-2003 10:25 AM nator has not replied

  
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