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Author Topic:   Destruction of Pompei is 1631 year.
elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 84 of 132 (377611)
01-17-2007 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Chiroptera
01-17-2007 4:35 PM


Re: I have a question.
Good question. Discussion is not so interesting to me. A problem more simple. To inform people that there are facts not conterminous with a modern picture of the past. These facts approve, that our representations about the past it is a myth. In our world there is too dangerous not a knowledge of the real past.

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 91 of 132 (377821)
01-18-2007 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by PaulK
01-18-2007 2:20 AM


Re: I have a question.
From a site of the Italian volcanists.
The description of this eruption is made using the words of two witnesses of it: Giulio Cesare Recupito (De Vesuviano Incendio Nuntius) and Giulio Cesare Braccini (Dell'Incendio fattosi al Vesuvio a' XVI Dicembre 1631, e delle sue cause ed effetti).
THE NIGHT BETWEEN 15 AND 16 DECEMBER:
Recupito
Earthquakes, particularly strong occurred during that night when we thought the same city teared from its foundations.
For two days there were continuous tremors and frequent quakes: in the following five days the earthquake became less frequent until the all tragedy ended. In Naples, no house fell down but many were damaged. At Herculaneum, the palace of the Archbishop partially collapsed.
http://vulcan.fis.uniroma3.it/vesuvio/1631_engtext.html
What Herculaneum is in 1631? What the palace of the Archbishop is in Herculaneum?

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 96 of 132 (377835)
01-18-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by dwise1
01-15-2007 6:16 PM


Re: Confused
Sixteen centuries has passed and has passed six years on five and year without one month

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 97 of 132 (377840)
01-18-2007 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by PaulK
01-16-2007 5:24 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
I do not deny, that Pompeii could be destroyed before 1631. It have been possibly restored after destruction. However the old city should be under the city, that today is dug out. I approve, that dug out the city was lost in 1631.
We have books the eruptions of Vesuvius written by witnesses in 1631.

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 98 of 132 (377843)
01-18-2007 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by anastasia
01-17-2007 12:14 AM


Re: Translate or don't post
There is not Fomenko`s idea. This idea of Vesuvius being Sinaiis is N. A. Morosov (1854-1946)

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 102 of 132 (378158)
01-19-2007 7:06 PM


for all
After thick layers of ash covered the two towns, they were abandoned and eventually their names and locations were forgotten. Then Herculaneum was rediscovered in 1738, and Pompeii in 1748.
Pompeii - Wikipedia
However in 17 century still nobody forgot this name.
Authors written in 1631 about eruption of Vesuvius know a site Pompeii and Herculaneum.
Digitale Bibliothek - Münchener Digitalisierungszentrum
PAGE NOT FOUND | Loyola University Chicago Libraries
The text is written on a monument in Torre del Greco mentions Pompeii and Herculaneum.
Just a moment...
Have people forgotten about these cities or have not forgotten after eruption 79 years?

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 104 of 132 (378186)
01-19-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by dwise1
01-19-2007 7:27 PM


Re: for all
I can agree with you. In that case the information of Wiki is not correct. There is no information in modern books that medieval authors mention Pompeii. (Why?)

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 109 of 132 (477420)
08-02-2008 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by elcano
01-13-2007 6:36 PM


data of eruption
Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research 169 (2007) 87-98
The 79 AD eruption of Somma: The relationship between the date of
the eruption and the southeast tephra dispersion
G. Rolandi, A. Paone, M. Di Lascio, G. Stefani
Abstract
Somma-Vesuvius is a composite volcano on the southern margin of the Campanian Plain which has been active during the last 39 ka BP and which poses a hazard and risk for the main population center situated around its base. The fieldwork and data analysis on which this report is based are related to the eight Plinian eruptions that have occurred in the last 25 ka. For six of these eruptions, the fallout products were dispersed to the east-northeast, whereas deposits from the 25 ka Codola and AD 79 eruptions were dispersed in a south-easterly direction. During the AD 79 eruption, in particular, the dispersal axis migrated from the east-southeast to south-southeast. New high level wind data collected at the weather stations of the Aereonautica Militare data centres at Pratica di Mare (Rome) and Brindisi have been compiled to characterize the prevailing wind condition in the Somma-Vesuvius region.
The common north-easterly dispersal directions of the Plinian eruptions are consistent with the distribution of ash by high-altitude winds from October to June. In contrast, the south-easterly trend of the AD 79 products appears to be anomalous, because the eruption is conventionally believed to have occurred on the 24th of August, when its southeast dispersive trend falls in a transitional period from the Summer to Autumnal wind regimes.
In fact, the AD 79 tephra dispersive direction towards the southeast is not in agreement with the June-August high-altitude wind directions that are toward the west. This poses serious doubt about the date of the eruption and the mismatch raises the hypothesis that the eruption occurred in the Autumnal climatic period, when high-altitude winds were also blowing towards the southeast.
New archaeological findings presented in this study definitively place the date of eruption in the Autumn, in good agreement with the prevailing high-altitude wind directions above Somma-Vesuvius.
Moreover, wind data and past eruptive behaviour indicate that a future subplinian-Plinian eruption at Somma-Vesuvius has a good chance to occur when winds are blowing toward the eastern sectors (northeast-southeast), in the Autumnal-Winter period, and only a slightest chance in Summer, when winds are blowing toward the west, depositing ash fallout on the Neapolitan community.
The 79 AD eruption of Somma: The relationship between the date of the eruption and the southeast tephra dispersion
Edited by Admin, : Fix long link, improve formatting.

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 111 of 132 (478544)
08-17-2008 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by elcano
08-02-2008 2:22 AM


Re: data of eruption
The nice picture from the book of 1737, in names of settlements is present Retina, Leucopetra, Porticus and Turris the Octave, which Herculaneum.
Edited by Admin, : Reduce image width.

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 113 of 132 (479008)
08-23-2008 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Hyroglyphx
08-22-2008 10:16 PM


Re: data of eruption
quote:
My uncle was stationed at Misenum, in active command of the fleet. On 24 August, in the early afternoon, my mother drew his attention to a cloud of unusual size and appearance
  —Nemesis Juggernaut
The Italian archeologists do not agree with eruption date.
See Message 109
or
quote:
The controversy about the precise date of the destruction of Pompeii was settled on October 11th, 1889. While excavating a bed of volcanic ashes, a few steps outside the Porta Stabiana, Signor Ruggero discovered and moulded in plaster two human forms, and that of a trunk of a tree, 3.40 metres long, 0.40 m. in diameter.
One of the human casts belonged to a middle-aged man clothed in an overcoat, and lying on his back with drawn-up legs, and arms outstretched, as if trying to protect his chest from the shower of burning ashes by which he was suffocated. The other belongs to an old woman suffocated and buried while attempting to raise herself from the ground by the joint action of hands and knees. By far more important is the cast of the trunk of the tree. The tree was still in its upright position, and must have been twenty-five or thirty feet high. The lower portion, embedded in pumice-stone, does not appear in the mould; the top also has disappeared, because, projecting above the bed of ashes, it must have been burned or cut away.
The middle section of the trunk is wonderfully well preserved, together with many leaves and berries. Trunk, leaves, and berries belong undoubtedly to a species of Laurus Nobilis, the fruit of which comes to maturity towards the end of autumn. Prof. Pasquale, in a paper published in the Notizie degli Scavi for 1889, p. 408, proves that the berries discovered on October 11th were perfectly ripe.This Laurus Nobilis, therefore, so ingeniously brought back to life after a lapse of one thousand eight hundred and ten years, settles the controversy concerning [p. 1289] the date of the eruption: it took place in the month of November, on November 23, A.D. 79.
Harry Thurston Peck, Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities (1898)
Edited by elcano, : No reason given.

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 115 of 132 (479017)
08-23-2008 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Hyroglyphx
08-22-2008 10:16 PM


Re: data of eruption
The letter of Pliny the Younger has also other reading.
quote:
The sailors stationed at Retina, alarmed at the imminence of the danger - for the village lay at the foot of the mountain, and the sole escape was by sea - sent to entreat his assistance in rescuing them from this frightful peril. Upon this he instantly changed his plans, and what he had already begun from a desire for knowledge, he determined to carry out as a matter of duty. He had the gallies put to see at once, and went on board himself, with the intention of rendering assistance, not only to Retina, but to many other places as well; for the whole of this charming coast was thickly populated.
“The Natural History of Pliny” trans. J. Bostock, H.T. Riley, London 1893.
Retina (volgare Resina) a city existing in the Middle Ages, but not in the ancient time.

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 116 of 132 (479038)
08-23-2008 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Percy
08-23-2008 7:01 AM


Re: data of eruption
quote:
The botanist, Professor
Fortunate Pasquale, examined the remains, and pronounces the tree
to be a variety of the Laurus nobilis ; that is the arbutus or unedo
or strawberry-tree, the fruit of which does not ripen till well into
November. The fruit found was immature, and proves that the
tree must have fallen early in November.
The fruit consists of a small round red ball, the coat of which is
somewhat rough. It grows in profusion at the Lakes of Killarney,
and ripens about Christmas. The fruit is sold in the streets of
Rome in December, under the title of ceresa marine; in Florence
the fruit is called corbezzola ; and at Siena, albatre. Pliny says
(xxiii. 79) : "The arbutus or unedo bears a fruit that is difficult of
digestion and injurious to the stomach." "The fruit is held in no
esteem, in proof of which it has gained its name of unedo (unum,
edo, I eat but one), people being generally content with eating but
one "
(xv. 28).
From this interesting discovery we are now certain that Pompeii
was destroyed on November 5th, 79.
BIBLIOGRAFIA DI POMPEI
Russel Forbes, 1893 p.44
Fruit ripens about Christmas.
Eruption of Vesuvius was 16 december 1631.
Archeological finds assert that Pompey has been destroyed in the winter.
Eruption described Pliny the Younger is not connected in any way with the destroyed city.
Pliny the Younger knows nothing about the city of Pompey. See letter in Message 112
Edited by elcano, : No reason given.

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 118 of 132 (479060)
08-24-2008 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Hyroglyphx
08-23-2008 11:44 PM


Re: data of eruption
Cities destroyed in 1631.
Before and after eruption.

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 120 of 132 (479086)
08-24-2008 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Percy
08-24-2008 7:45 AM


Re: data of eruption
You really believe that there are any sources confirming destruction of Pompey in 1631.

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elcano
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 126 of 132 (479205)
08-25-2008 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Hyroglyphx
08-24-2008 2:40 PM


Re: data of eruption
I think that Pliny the Younger has described real eruption of Vesuvius (or Etna), but this eruption has no communication with eruption destroyed Pompeii and Herculaneum. However there are following facts.
Epitaffio from Torre dell Greco
Engraving from the book - MASCULI I. B. (1633) - De incendio Vesuvii excitato XVlI kal Ianuarii anno trigesimo primo saeculi decimiseptimi, Roncaglido, Napoli. (see Message 118)
From these facts follows that in 17 century there were any cities with the name Pompeii and Herculaneum and these cities have been destroyed on December, 16th, 1631.
If it will be interesting to you, I will try to translate into English some more the facts in support of the version.
Interesting photos from Pompey are here ‘ | — KasparovChess

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