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Author Topic:   Evidence for an Old Earth
John
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 61 (50028)
08-11-2003 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by joshua221
08-11-2003 12:51 PM


Re: one at a time...
quote:
But you put words into my mouth.
Exactly what words did I put into your mouth? I don't remember doing anything close, but if asked to put words into your mouth they'd be "I am ridiculously ignorant of my subject and I am talking out my ass, so I am going to shut-up now and go read."
quote:
Now that you brought it up I do firmly believe that what this guy is saying on bible.ca is reliable.
After having been shown what thrash it is? Unbelievable!
quote:
Now that article being decades old, that I didn't know was true and if it is, so what you know, the site is doing a great job of telling people what is right (from the Creationist point of view.)
If you don't know what is right, why are you supporting the author? That smacks of dishonesty and hypocracy.
You do know the truth about that site. I told you. Go verify the information if you want. So you can no longer hide behind, 'I don't know.' From now on, if you spread this garbage, you do so knowing it is garbage. That qualifies as lying.
There is no 'right from a creationist perspective,' nor is there 'right from an evolutionist perspective.' There is 'information that can be verified' and there is 'mis-information.' What you are pushing is the latter.
quote:
Thats all that matters to me.
What matters is that your agenda be pushed? Do you have any concern for the truth at all?
quote:
I was asking for evidence and it seems I'm the only one providing it.
BS. I went point by point through your evidence adding information, correcting mis-information, agreeing with some bits, and clarifying other bits. How do you justify this arrogance? Hell, how do you justify the telling of this outright lie? Lie? Yes, indeed. Find one bit of information in my post concerning radiometric dating and your claim to be the only one providing evidence is false. And people who say false things are... well, you figure it out.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
[This message has been edited by John, 08-12-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by joshua221, posted 08-11-2003 12:51 PM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Admin, posted 08-12-2003 9:54 AM John has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 32 of 61 (50117)
08-12-2003 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by John
08-11-2003 7:24 PM


Re: one at a time...
Hi John,
You are remarkably composed, considering. I, too, was very distressed at the way prophecyexclaimed replied to your responses of the issues raised in his cut-n-pastes. He ignored both your points and common courtesy when he replied as he did, not to mention violating the Forum Guidelines.
It almost seems as if our more recent Creationist members have honed their debating skills in midnight bull sessions after Friday night beer bashes. They hold in common a fairly profound lack of understanding, even of their own side's perspectives, and combine it with an inability to maintain continuity in discussion.
I know comments like the above must seem to Creationists like I am biased against them, but what I am actually biased against is members who enter discussions on topics with which they're unfamiliar or even completely ignorant, and who are temperamentally incapable of carrying on a reasoned discussion. I can't count the number of times Creationists have come here so unfamiliar with their own side's position that they completely bollix one common Creationist argument or another, leaving evolutionists with the task of first explaining to him what he was trying to say, and then explaining to him why it is wrong. Most people with a shred of any sense of shame would have slunk off or at least just lurked for a while, but these Creationists just march right on to garble another Creationist position. I find this behavior incredible.
I remember being given "the speech" in one of my college freshman classes. It was a more complex variation of the speech that goes, "Look to your left, and look to your right. Those people won't be here in four years. And if they *are* still here, guess what?"
This particular version instead addressed confidence. The professor expressed his amazement at the confidence of youth, and he said there are two types of confidence. There is confidence that stems from having never been tested, and which commonly manifests itself as braggadocio. And there is confidence that stems from having been tested and tested and tested again, thereby developing experience and knowledge through success and failure, and which usually manifests itself as calm assurance with an underlying reticence.
It appears to me that our new Creationist members have yet to be tested. Because they are unprepared to engage in debate on this topic they are finding their experience here frustrating, and this is manifesting itself in unpredictable behavior and arrogance when faced with authority. And my fondest hope is that they prove me wrong. It would be wonderful to have a group of competent Creationists to debate with.
Sorry for the digression. I didn't mean to run on like this. I mainly just wanted to request that you let board administration handle the problems with the recent members. Thanks!
------------------
--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by John, posted 08-11-2003 7:24 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by John, posted 08-12-2003 10:39 AM Admin has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 61 (50123)
08-12-2003 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Admin
08-12-2003 9:54 AM


Re: one at a time...
quote:
Sorry for the digression. I didn't mean to run on like this. I mainly just wanted to request that you let board administration handle the problems with the recent members. Thanks!
grumble... grumble... ooooooook
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Admin, posted 08-12-2003 9:54 AM Admin has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 61 (50172)
08-12-2003 2:33 PM


.
DC85 said:
quote:
you ignored my post........ answer it Please. I gave you some things to think about. and if you answer I will give you more. Without dating there is evidence for an earth much older then the Bible says it is. Now those sites you gave have already been discussed here and been concluded to be false information. Almost All things in Creationist sites(against evolution) have been proven wrong. yet they never EVER Update. wonder why....... search the web I am sure you can easily find Answers that prove them wrong on everything they say.
You seem to think we would Hide errors if there where any? No my friend science doesn't work like that. Believe me If I could Disprove Evolution I and every other Evolutionist would do it in a heart beat. We can't Because there is no evidence that goes against it. Right now all the evidence Points to Evolution and None point to the Bible
Do you realize how many people I am talking to? Calm down and give me time. I am only 14 so I am learning a lot at one time here.
"We can't Because there is no evidence that goes against it. Right now all the evidence Points to Evolution and None point to the Bible "
Examples?
" Believe me If I could Disprove Evolution I and every other Evolutionist would do it in a heart beat. "
Of course not your brainwashed.
"you ignored my post........"
Sounds good! Its hard when Im trying to talk to 10 other evolutionists. I don't know what your post was.
"Almost All things in Creationist sites(against evolution) have been proven wrong. yet they never EVER Update. wonder why....... search the web I am sure you can easily find Answers that prove them wrong on everything they say. "
You need back-up, come on give me some examples?
Crashfrog, the bible was originaly written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Translated into English! What the english Bible says is what the others say just in another language!
Are you truly that ignorant about translation? I assume you speak no foreign languages, right? But surely you've heard the phrase "lost in the translation"? Why do you suppose we have that phrase if translation is simply a matter of word exchange?
Furthermore, if it's so easy to translate bibles (or anything else) why are there so many translations of the bible in English?
Rrhain has told you what the Bible says in Greek. Your bible translates wrong. What part of this aren't you getting? The Greek is there for you to read. So is the English. They don't agree. What more evidence do you need to say that your bible is mistranslated?
Ok I agree now maybe a few words were lost... David was not a homosexual and thats all I was trying to prove and why don't you give me some examples of where it says that about david in the Bible? (Greek whatever). This is open to you or RRhain or anyone else! RRhain has not told me what it says in Greek please RRhain tell me.
"Well besides the whole geologic column, I'd have to say plate tectonics.
Plate tectonics, which supports the theory of continental drift, is responsible for moving continents and making new ones, creating mountains, for most of the earthquakes and volcanoes around the globe, etc.. There is absolutely no evidence for catastropic plate tectonics, so that is not even a remote possibility.
Evidence:
-- rocks, as well as mineralized and petroleum systems that match up across divides;
-- current movement of the plates (at about a couple cm per year);
-- ocean derived sedimentary rocks at tops of mountains;
-- paleomagnetism;
-- intracontinental island arc and ophiolite remnants;
-- tropical vegetation and fossils in todays artic regions and vice versa;
-- aulocogens;
-- relatively young age of the ocean floor;
--overturned, folded, metamorphosed sedimentary layers."
The geologic column is a fraud. http://www.trueorigin.org/geocolumn.asp
This link tells why in great detail.
I don't know about plate tectonics so that I cant talk to you intelligently about.
"But you put words into my mouth.
Exactly what words did I put into your mouth? I don't remember doing anything close, but if asked to put words into your mouth they'd be "I am ridiculously ignorant of my subject and I am talking out my ass, so I am going to shut-up now and go read."
Please stop getting heated from a debate... Sheesh, Insults, Insults, Insults. I'm not getting into it with someone who is constantly ridiculing my beliefs...
"Now that you brought it up I do firmly believe that what this guy is saying on bible.ca is reliable.
After having been shown what thrash it is? Unbelievable!"
I did not mean that article, I should have been more descriptive.
"Now that article being decades old, that I didn't know was true and if it is, so what you know, the site is doing a great job of telling people what is right (from the Creationist point of view.)
If you don't know what is right, why are you supporting the author? That smacks of dishonesty and hypocracy.
You do know the truth about that site. I told you. Go verify the information if you want. So you can no longer hide behind, 'I don't know.' From now on, if you spread this garbage, you do so knowing it is garbage. That qualifies as lying.
There is no 'right from a creationist perspective,' nor is there 'right from an evolutionist perspective.' There is 'information that can be verified' and there is 'mis-information.' What you are pushing is the latter.
quote:
Thats all that matters to me.
What matters is that your agenda be pushed? Do you have any concern for the truth at all? "
More insults... Nice.
------------------
The Greatest single cause of Atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips but walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable. -DC Talk
{Note: This message is a reply to DC85's message 30. I have added the quote box and quote attribute at the top - (ps: Everybody, calm down!) - Adminnemooseus}
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 08-12-2003]

Replies to this message:
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 Message 36 by zephyr, posted 08-12-2003 2:54 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 08-12-2003 3:37 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 52 by DC85, posted 08-12-2003 11:18 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 35 of 61 (50183)
08-12-2003 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by joshua221
08-12-2003 2:33 PM


Re: .
Hi Proph!
prophecyexclaimed writes:
The geologic column is a fraud. http://www.trueorigin.org/geocolumn.asp
This link tells why in great detail.
This is a violation of the Forum Guidelines:
  • Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided.
No one is trying to rush you. Other members, please note Proph's age and tread a bit more lightly. Proph, I ask you in turn to follow the forum guidelines, pay more attention to moderator requests, stick to topics you know something about, and just as I have requested of the other members to express yourself a bit less stridently.
Thanks!
------------------
--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by joshua221, posted 08-12-2003 2:33 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4549 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 36 of 61 (50184)
08-12-2003 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by joshua221
08-12-2003 2:33 PM


Re: .
quote:
The geologic column is a fraud. http://www.trueorigin.org/geocolumn.asp
This link tells why in great detail.
That's a page that I'm betting virtually everyone here has already read. It doesn't even begin to tell you the whole truth.
The geologic column is incomplete in most places because the earth has experienced catastrophic events and lengthy periods of erosion in almost every location. This in no way refutes the fact that human fossils are found in young rocks, dinosaurs in older rocks, fish in still older rocks, then only small invertebrates, then bacteria.
The most ironic thing about the article is that most of the so-called problems are evidences of an old earth. The complexity, broken nature, and actual contents of the column in many places are best explained by such things as long periods of deposition, long periods of evaporation, long periods of erosion, and gradual movement of masses of land over long periods of time. The Dakota example cited in your link is a great example. Read about it here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/
You may be put off by an apparent bias in the introduction, but I assure you that this is only a bias in favor of the evidence, and the information in the article is all factual. If you want to be viewed as an informed and objective participant in debate, you would do well to understand how these facts affect our understanding of the geologic column and the earth's age.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by joshua221, posted 08-12-2003 2:33 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 61 (50188)
08-12-2003 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by joshua221
08-12-2003 2:33 PM


Re: .
Ok I agree now maybe a few words were lost... David was not a homosexual and thats all I was trying to prove and why don't you give me some examples of where it says that about david in the Bible?
Well, it says "his love for (what's-his-name) surpassed the love of women." And they get naked together. If a male friend of mine today said "Hey Crash, I love this dude more than I love women, and we get naked together," I'd assume they were gay. Seems pretty clear to me.
(Greek whatever). This is open to you or RRhain or anyone else! RRhain has not told me what it says in Greek please RRhain tell me.
Rrhain told you that the Greek reads "arsenkoites" (sp?) where older English translations have said "homosexuality", but that's not what "arsenkoites" means. It means "male temple prostitute", not "homosexual".
Just to make it clear - I'm not arguing Rrhain's position for him, just repeating the things that he's already written to you. I can appreciate that you're 10 to one, here, and that you might have missed it the first time. I suggest you go back and read again, or get Rrhain to make some things more clear for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by joshua221, posted 08-12-2003 2:33 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 61 (50198)
08-12-2003 4:33 PM


.
The geologic column is incomplete in most places because the earth has experienced catastrophic events and lengthy periods of erosion in almost every location. This in no way refutes the fact that human fossils are found in young rocks, dinosaurs in older rocks, fish in still older rocks, then only small invertebrates, then bacteria.
"lengthy periods of erosion"
Ever here of the Flood?
------------------
"As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (emphasis added) -- Charles Darwin

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 08-12-2003 4:37 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 41 by mark24, posted 08-12-2003 4:47 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 61 (50199)
08-12-2003 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by joshua221
08-12-2003 4:33 PM


Re: .
Ever hear of the Flood?
Some of that erosion is due to floods, sure.
Oh, you meant one huge global flood? How did life survive it? And how would a flood sort fossils?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by joshua221, posted 08-12-2003 4:33 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by joshua221, posted 08-12-2003 4:50 PM crashfrog has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 61 (50200)
08-12-2003 4:37 PM


.
I'd have to see the verse to believe it, understand my perspective here? An evolutionist is telling me interpretations of the Bible... They aren't put in exact words but if what you're telling me is true then yes it seems very blatant. If he is a homosexual it's not a big deal for me thinking about it, just because everyone is a sinner. He would be judged accordingly. (This just my opinion, no need for insults from anyone.)
------------------
"As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (emphasis added) -- Charles Darwin

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 41 of 61 (50206)
08-12-2003 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by joshua221
08-12-2003 4:33 PM


prophecyexclaimed,
Ever here of the Flood?
So why do rock units experience multiple age gaps? This couldn't occur under a global flood scenario. How does the flood explain the areas of the world where the main ten era's are present, yet your own cite explains to you that there are gaps both in & between them?
One big gap, that was evident glabally, would be excellent evidence of a flood, it just doesn't exist, though.
Mark
------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by joshua221, posted 08-12-2003 4:33 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 61 (50210)
08-12-2003 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by crashfrog
08-12-2003 4:37 PM


Re: .
Life didn't survive it, well except for sea life that is. See Below for why I think the fossils seem to be sorted in most cases.
"The geologic column is incomplete in most places because the earth has experienced catastrophic events and lengthy periods of erosion in almost every location. This in no way refutes the fact that human fossils are found in young rocks, dinosaurs in older rocks, fish in still older rocks, then only small invertebrates, then bacteria."
It's how you date these rocks that I am at disagreement with how accurate the dating is. Also, I assume logically thinking here that the humans being smart would swim to the top of the flood waters trying to stay alive, the animals who can't swim like dinosaurs (just the weight of some land dinosaurs makes that problem), or smaller animals that can't do much of anything would be at the bottom. This is just what I think would have happened if you think the Flood occured then this theory is logical.
------------------
"As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (emphasis added) -- Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 08-12-2003 4:37 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 08-12-2003 5:00 PM joshua221 has not replied
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 Message 50 by mark24, posted 08-12-2003 6:29 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 61 (50212)
08-12-2003 4:53 PM


.
prophecyexclaimed,
Ever here of the Flood?
"So why do rock units experience multiple age gaps? This couldn't occur under a global flood scenario. How does the flood explain the areas of the world where the main ten era's are present, yet your own cite explains to you that there are gaps both in & between them?
One big gap, that was evident glabally, would be excellent evidence of a flood, it just doesn't exist, though.
Mark"
Please explain multiple age gaps? Seriously I have not the slightest idea of what that means.
------------------
"As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (emphasis added) -- Charles Darwin

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by mark24, posted 08-12-2003 6:12 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 61 (50215)
08-12-2003 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by joshua221
08-12-2003 4:50 PM


Re: .
Life didn't survive it, well except for sea life that is.
Huh? Land life survived somehow, right? And how would sea life survive a flood that held enough sediment to deposit several kilometers of geologic column? That would be a Mud, not a flood.
Also, I assume logically thinking here that the humans being smart would swim to the top of the flood waters trying to stay alive, the animals who can't swim like dinosaurs (just the weight of some land dinosaurs makes that problem), or smaller animals that can't do much of anything would be at the bottom.
Ah, yes, the fleeing theory. What about the humans who couldn't swim? How about the dinosaurs that could? Why do we never find human bones below dinosaurs? Surely some human must have fallen behind a dinosaur?
And (this is the real clincher) why don't we find fossil grasses with dinosaur bones? Are you telling me that grass and other modern plants picked up their roots and ran ahead of the flood? Ludicrous!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by joshua221, posted 08-12-2003 4:50 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 45 of 61 (50223)
08-12-2003 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by joshua221
08-12-2003 4:50 PM


Re: .cypress trees....
Also, I assume logically thinking here that the humans being smart would swim to the top of the flood waters trying to stay alive
And the cypress trees, having knees, also had feet and ran to higher ground, while the poor footless seed ferns in the same swamp drowned and went extinct.
I don't think so.
The fossil record can't be massaged enough to look like that's what happened, and geologists had already figured that out by 1830. Try a newer argument - this one won't swim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by joshua221, posted 08-12-2003 4:50 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
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