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Author Topic:   Hammer found in Cretaceous layer
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 76 of 160 (175102)
01-08-2005 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Buzsaw
01-08-2005 7:22 PM


Re: Say What?
quote:
Can you cite a couple of examples of what you are referring to in order that we may compare them to Baughs hammer and cup?
Not sure what you intend here, since two examples have been cited already. Isn't there a some kind of a boot in limestone someplace?
Added by edit: And then of course there is the dry lake artifact that was supposed to be from some advanced, now vanished civilization. It turned out to be an old version of a spark plug.
And yes, how about Onyate Man? Forgot about that one.
This message has been edited by edge, 01-08-2005 20:37 AM

This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 77 of 160 (175113)
01-08-2005 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by edge
01-08-2005 8:35 PM


Re: Say What?
Isn't there a some kind of a boot in limestone someplace?
Yeah, the "limestone cowboy" with "fossilized" foot bones in an un-fossilized leather boot. And a "fossilized" hat in New Zealand. And a "fossilized" bat on top of a stalagmite. All limestone concretions found in caves. Sorry, I can't seem to dig up any Web references, although I know there are some.
And then of course there is the dry lake artifact that was supposed to be from some advanced, now vanished civilization. It turned out to be an old version of a spark plug.
That one I have a reference on. The Coso Artifact.

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 78 of 160 (175117)
01-08-2005 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by edge
01-08-2005 8:35 PM


Re: Say What?
Don't forget the Calaveras Skull.
From Talk.Origins:
The presence of such a hoax involving "Tertiary archaeology" indicates that such hoaxes and practical jokes were being played upon geologists and their fellow miners by other miners within the gold fields of Tuolumne and Calaveras Counties. The prevalence of traditional mining-camp jokes is well illustrated by organization of miners such as the Ancient and Honorable Order of E Clampus Vitus (Jackson 1941:351-352; Rather 1980:267-277).
[ENTIRE ARTICLE]
Anyone who has ever worked at an underground mine will corroborate the bolded. Miners are insatiable tricksters.
More info: The Calaveras Skull
This message has been edited by roxrkool, 01-09-2005 00:00 AM

This message is a reply to:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 79 of 160 (175127)
01-08-2005 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by roxrkool
01-08-2005 10:25 PM


Re: Say What?
quote:
Anyone who has ever worked at un underground mine will corroborate the bolded. Miners are insatiable tricksters.
The things a YEC will never know. You've just brought back a lot of memories...

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 80 of 160 (175135)
01-09-2005 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
01-08-2005 7:17 PM


Re: Cup/Hammer Connection
or the fact that he has a number of questionable displays should make one seriously question the veracity of anything in the museum.
I have been to a number of roadside "museums" where a quick survey showed that time was better spent going in the opposite direction.
try a google on "american stonehenge" for an example.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 81 of 160 (175182)
01-09-2005 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Buzsaw
01-08-2005 7:22 PM


Re: Say What?
That's a really odd request. Producing examples of OTHER alleged finds would do nothing to explain how Baugh got the cup he claims to have.
http://www.creationevidence.org/...tour/ironpot/ironpot.html
Refers to a lump of coal allegedly split open at a power plant in 1912 and reported in 1948. Maybe this is Baugh's cup ?
Likewise the gold chain referred to on this page was allegedly found in 1891
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/5994/page3.html
Both items were supposedly found AFTER the coal had been distributed, and neither was at all recent.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 160 (175199)
01-09-2005 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by roxrkool
01-08-2005 10:25 PM


Re: Mine Trixters
Anyone who has ever worked at an underground mine will corroborate the bolded. Miners are insatiable tricksters.
1. .....And you know by mine experience?
2. I see nothing produced by skeptics as to how the tricks were allegedly done, that is to produce items embeded in actual coal deposits artificially. Can you show how the tricksters allegedly did it?

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. It is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 83 of 160 (175208)
01-09-2005 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Buzsaw
01-09-2005 10:35 AM


Re: Mine Trixters
buzsaw writes:
2. I see nothing produced by skeptics as to how the tricks were allegedly done, that is to produce items embeded in actual coal deposits artificially. Can you show how the tricksters allegedly did it?
I'm having trouble understanding your continued credulity. When you see a magic show and can't figure out how the magician did it and he tells you that's because it's real magic, do you conclude it was real magic? Of course not. So when Carl makes a number of incredible claims and doesn't permit independent analysis, why do you continue to give Carl the benefit of the doubt.
You've probably heard about the "James, son of Joseph, borther of Jesus" ossuary box. Whether or not you believe the box genuine, at least the owner, Oded Golan, made the box available for study. Would he have done that if he believed the box a fake? No, of course not.
What would Golan have done if he *had* believed the box a fake. Why, he would have kept it away from independent analysis. He would have said that such analyses couldn't be trusted. He would have expressed concern about professionalism. He would have called attention to the intrigues of doubters. In short, he would have behaved precisely as Carl is behaving.
If Carl's opinions about the cup, the hammer, the sandal imprint and all the rest are correct, it would revolutionize history and science. So what does Carl do with these invaluable artifacts? Does he move forward in a way that would benefit posterity? No, he locks them away in his museum with captions and descriptions unsupported by valid evidence in order to benefit no one but himself and his causes.
And this is apparently not only okay by you, but implicitly encouraged by you through your tolerant treatment of him.
The sheer gullibility reminds me of an old comic. Two adults are watching a televangelist who is saying, "God wants you to send me money." The caption says, "Sounds good to me, Orville, let's send him little Jimmy's college fund."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 84 of 160 (175211)
01-09-2005 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Buzsaw
01-09-2005 10:35 AM


Re: Mine Trixters
I see nothing produced by skeptics as to how the tricks were allegedly done, that is to produce items embeded in actual coal deposits artificially. Can you show how the tricksters allegedly did it?
I've seen, someplace that I forget, a discussion that hypothesized that the coal around the cup could be formerly loose coal accumulated around a cup dropped in a mine, cemented together by any of various mechanisms (e.g. limestane accumulation from percolating water). There are lots of ways in which such an artifact could have come to exist. Only professional examination can colapse the many possibilities into a few possibilities or one possibility.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 160 (175223)
01-09-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by berberry
01-07-2005 2:59 PM


Re: Hmmm, Makes one wonder.....
And they're not even all that rare. Go to most any gem and mineral show and you'll see a display of "dinner plates" featuring such delicacies as roast beef, mashed potatoes, english peas, rolls and even jello for dessert. All rocks, of course, but they do look yummy!
1. Hmmm, all this talk about bogus real looking archeological stuff makes one wonder just how much of you people's ideological alleged evidence has been proven not bogus and how much of it has been subjected to the analytic scrutiny of creation scientists for fairness an balance.
2. Has it been shown that coal can be faked or molded so as to encase things like cups and hammers, etc, and is there such a thing as young coal mines a few centuries old?

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. It is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 86 of 160 (175225)
01-09-2005 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Buzsaw
01-09-2005 12:49 PM


how much of it has been subjected to the analytic scrutiny of creation scientists for fairness an balance.
And exactly how would that analysis and scrutiny be performed? Which creation labs are you aware of that can perform mass spectronomy, NMR, or metallurgic analysis, just to name a few?
Quite frankly, the state of the art in "creation science" isn't fit to analyze anything. You simply don't have the resources. I mean, I guess if you guys wanted to look at the objects and cluck your heads like you knew what you were talking about, we could let you do that; I think we can schedule you in with the middle school tour groups.
I'm sorry but I find the idea that creation science has any legitimate claim to an ability to assess evidence laughable at best; it's much akin to the Flat Earth Society demanding free rides in the Space Shuttle to "view this so-called evidence that the Earth is spherical for ourselves."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Buzsaw, posted 01-09-2005 12:49 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 160 (175226)
01-09-2005 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by JonF
01-09-2005 11:58 AM


Re: Mine Trixters
I've seen, someplace that I forget, a discussion that hypothesized that the coal around the cup could be formerly loose coal accumulated around a cup dropped in a mine, cemented together by any of various mechanisms (e.g. limestane accumulation from percolating water). There are lots of ways in which such an artifact could have come to exist. Only professional examination can colapse the many possibilities into a few possibilities or one possibility.
Doubtless, an expert, and for that matter even a novice, would be able to observe readily the difference between the appearance of a solid chunk of coal and cemented crumbled coal. I've handled coal for fuel, including larger chunks and I see no way crumbled stuff could be made to appear like a virgin chunk, either in color or in texture. That, imo, is far fetched desperation strawman.

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. It is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 88 of 160 (175227)
01-09-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Buzsaw
01-09-2005 12:58 PM


I've handled coal for fuel, including larger chunks and I see no way crumbled stuff could be made to appear like a virgin chunk, either in color or in texture.
Right, but since you haven't seen the texture of the accretion around the cup, what does it matter?

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 160 (175228)
01-09-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by crashfrog
01-09-2005 12:57 PM


And exactly how would that analysis and scrutiny be performed? Which creation labs are you aware of that can perform mass spectronomy, NMR, or metallurgic analysis, just to name a few?
It needn't by be by creation lab perse. There may or may not be such. I don't know. That's not what I said. It would be subjecting it to analysis observed by yc creation scientists.

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. It is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 90 of 160 (175232)
01-09-2005 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Buzsaw
01-09-2005 1:14 PM


Buzzsaw writes:
It needn't by be by creation lab perse. There may or may not be such. I don't know. That's not what I said. It would be subjecting it to analysis observed by yc creation scientists.
This is exactly what I am offering, along with a viable route to getting results published in mainstream scientific journals. If these artifacts are genuine then he should jump at the chance shouldn't he?
I haven't heard back yet but it has only been a couple of days.
PY

This message is a reply to:
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