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Author Topic:   Did congress make a law? (Establishment Clause)
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 91 of 103 (200042)
04-18-2005 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by gnojek
04-15-2005 2:52 PM


Re: Powers denied
Since the constitution is the supreme law of the land and congress is the legislature set up under the constitution, any powers denied to congress are also denied to any inferior legislature.
just not going to answer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by gnojek, posted 04-15-2005 2:52 PM gnojek has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 92 of 103 (200043)
04-18-2005 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by gnojek
04-15-2005 2:52 PM


Re: Powers denied
hat great choice in wording.
If only it were true.
It is the supreme law of the land, but that in no way implies that restrictions on congress should be applied to the states.
cross post
So you think that the state legislature has more powers than congress?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by gnojek, posted 04-15-2005 2:52 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by nator, posted 04-18-2005 10:24 AM tsig has replied
 Message 96 by gnojek, posted 04-22-2005 8:25 PM tsig has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 93 of 103 (200080)
04-18-2005 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by tsig
04-18-2005 4:43 AM


Re: Powers denied
quote:
So you think that the state legislature has more powers than congress?
Yeah, if that's the case, then where did this term "unfunded mandate" come from that the state governments use all the time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by tsig, posted 04-18-2005 4:43 AM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 103 (200081)
04-18-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by crashfrog
04-16-2005 12:14 AM


Furthermore I think you're missing the point that the Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights, or grant you your rights. Your rights need not be "granted"; in the words of the Declaration of Independance, these rights are inalienable and stem from your humanity and citizenship, not because the government or even the Constitution decides that you have them.
It's worth noting that the Constitution acknowledges this:
quote:
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
In other words, "But the Constitution doesn't say you do have this right" is a crap argument.

"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 04-16-2005 12:14 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by gnojek, posted 04-22-2005 8:35 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 95 of 103 (200149)
04-18-2005 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by nator
04-18-2005 10:24 AM


Re: Powers denied
Yeah, if that's the case, then where did this term "unfunded mandate" come from that the state governments use all the time?
I think Elvis has left the building.
I thought the Civil War settled the question of the central goverment vs. states rights.
Thanks for the reply.

This message is a reply to:
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gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 103 (201291)
04-22-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by tsig
04-18-2005 4:43 AM


Re: Powers denied
Is it a matter of 'more' powers or 'less' powers?
They have different powers.
Just because congress can't do something doesn't mean a state legislature can't do it.
Can congress ban prostitution in only Nevada?
That seems to be a power only the state of Nevada has.
This doesn't mean, though, that the state of Nevada has more power than the United States.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by tsig, posted 04-18-2005 4:43 AM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by tsig, posted 04-23-2005 5:46 AM gnojek has not replied

  
gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 103 (201292)
04-22-2005 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Dan Carroll
04-18-2005 10:43 AM


Dan's Clever Alias writes:
In other words, "But the Constitution doesn't say you do have this right" is a crap argument.
So can I claim that I have retained a right to smoke marijuana or sell my ladies on the corner? Those are my rights retained by me. Actually, they are the rights retained by the people. The constitution doesn't say that I have that right, but I must have it.
The constitution doesn't say that I have these rights, but I do all the same. But, certain fascist elements in the government have stripped me of these rights.
So how many rights do the people retain without the constitution enumerating them and what are they?
{edit: I'd like to add that the 9th ammendment, to my knowledge, was never invoked in any of these supreme court rulings, only the 1st and the 14th.}
This message has been edited by gnojek, 04-22-2005 07:48 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-18-2005 10:43 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-22-2005 9:09 PM gnojek has not replied
 Message 101 by Rrhain, posted 04-23-2005 6:06 AM gnojek has not replied
 Message 103 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-25-2005 10:56 AM gnojek has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 98 of 103 (201304)
04-22-2005 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by gnojek
04-22-2005 8:35 PM


the only things that a state cannot make laws on are those things specifically forbidden by the constitution (including reserved powers of the fed). among those things are the rights guaranteed to citizens. thus. the same thing that keeps the states from preventing minorities from voting is the same thing that keeps them from forbidding the teaching of evolution.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 99 of 103 (201368)
04-23-2005 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by gnojek
04-22-2005 8:25 PM


Re: Powers denied
Can congress ban prostitution in only Nevada?
Yes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by gnojek, posted 04-22-2005 8:25 PM gnojek has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Rrhain, posted 04-23-2005 5:59 AM tsig has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 100 of 103 (201369)
04-23-2005 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by tsig
04-23-2005 5:46 AM


Re: Powers denied
DHA responds to gnojek:
quote:
quote:
Can congress ban prostitution in only Nevada?
Yes
No.
That would be a violation of the 14th Amendment which guarantees equal protection under the law. If Congress is going to pass a law, it must apply to the entire citizenry equally.
Now, if Congress doesn't outlaw prostitution (and I don't think they can since that is a matter for States to decide), then an individual State can do it.
Congress can regulate interstate commerce but it cannot regulate commerce in a single state.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by tsig, posted 04-23-2005 5:46 AM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by tsig, posted 04-23-2005 6:33 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 101 of 103 (201371)
04-23-2005 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by gnojek
04-22-2005 8:35 PM


gnojek writes:
quote:
So can I claim that I have retained a right to smoke marijuana or sell my ladies on the corner?
Of course not. Other powers granted to the governmental bodies allow them to regulate such activity on your part.
You seem to have this bizarre "all or nothing" attitude regarding the interaction between the various levels of government and the people. The reality of the situation is that it isn't like that. No right is absolute. Your right to free speech, for example, does not guarantee you an audience. The airwaves are regulated by the government in order to allow them to be used by the public. You have a right to use the EM spectrum to broadcast your views, but not by crowding out everybody else. In order to prevent that, the government forms a regulatory function which is in their power as defined by the Constitution.
quote:
Those are my rights retained by me.
No, they're not.
quote:
So how many rights do the people retain without the constitution enumerating them and what are they?
This is a silly question. The system doesn't work that way.
You seem to be of the "laundry list" view of the Constitution and it isn't.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by gnojek, posted 04-22-2005 8:35 PM gnojek has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 102 of 103 (201373)
04-23-2005 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Rrhain
04-23-2005 5:59 AM


Re: Powers denied
That would be a violation of the 14th Amendment which guarantees equal protection under the law. If Congress is going to pass a law, it must apply to the entire citizenry equally.
The 14th only mentions states.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Rrhain, posted 04-23-2005 5:59 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 103 (202181)
04-25-2005 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by gnojek
04-22-2005 8:35 PM


So can I claim that I have retained a right to smoke marijuana or sell my ladies on the corner? Those are my rights retained by me. Actually, they are the rights retained by the people. The constitution doesn't say that I have that right, but I must have it.
Well, I say that World War I was in fact caused by the death of Archduke Franz Ferdinand!
Oh... I'm sorry, I thought we were playing a game of "read one thing and respond to something else entirely."
I didn't say you automatically had the right. I said that "the Constitution doesn't say you do have this right" is a crap argument for why you don't.

"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by gnojek, posted 04-22-2005 8:35 PM gnojek has not replied

  
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