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Author Topic:   Nations founding documents under attack
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 28 (167074)
12-10-2004 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by bob_gray
12-10-2004 8:33 PM


Re: California Case
Well,I found what seems to be a link to the standards. They are somewhat more complex that you might wish in that there is no 5th. Grade outline but rather 4-5, 5, 5-6 and seperate sections on history and social studies. But I could not find any mention of a standard that "this nation was founded on the Judeo-Christian heritage".
I believe that was added by his attorneys as a preemptive statement of fact. If they can get that admitted into the facts (things already assumed to be true and so not open to challenge or debate) then it is a major concession on the state's part.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by bob_gray, posted 12-10-2004 8:33 PM bob_gray has replied

Replies to this message:
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Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 17 of 28 (167076)
12-10-2004 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NosyNed
12-10-2004 5:47 PM


Re: California Case
For two deeply contrasting views on the subject (quickest I found on Google that weren't message boards):
Teacher Sues School For Religious Reference Ban
-or-
StackPath
And a Reuters article:
Page Not Found | Reuters.com
Personally, I'm more inclined to believe the second link, given that the first simply launches into a tirade about patriotism and a God-based country (and, further down, contains links about how evolution promotes evil and the other typical blank assertions, undermining the credibility - that's why I added the Reuters article, which contains the basic same view without all the vitriol). Meanhile the first uses quotes of those involved (albeit, somewhat dubious "proof" at some points) and evidence to present its view. But, who knows, that might just be my own bias getting involved.
{Added in edit: That isn't to say, naturally, that the second site's side doesn't have its own apparent biases and rants - a quick scan will prove otherwise. The difference, however, is that between these, it does present the reasoning behind its case. Second edit to correct grammar in first edit. }
This message has been edited by Morte, 12-10-2004 10:06 PM
This message has been edited by Morte, 12-10-2004 10:08 PM

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Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 18 of 28 (167081)
12-10-2004 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Swift
12-10-2004 5:34 PM


Re: My guess
quote:
And i found out that it wasint the US Constitution but various state constitutions that was banned. I guess I may have missheard. Plus they banned other documents than what I knew of.
Such as:
StackPath
I don't know the validity of this; it seems pretty clear at this point that everyone's presenting only one side of things. But, if this is truly one of the supplements in question, it's obvious that there was more than a simple "mention of God" involved in the decision:
Christianity has had a huge influence on our society and nation and so during the Easter season it's important to know why Christians celebrate this 'Holy' day and what impact Jesus Christ has had on our society and nation. Pick 2 of the following activities and present them next week.
  • Read the Easter story in the bible. Start reading Luke, chapter 22 and continue to the end of the book of Luke. Write a response to some of the themes in the Easter story of the bible: betrayal, sacrifice, resurrection, love, hope, new life. Write a response to any of the themes in the story using references from the bible and how they apply to our culture today. Make a diorama of a scene from the story and attach your written response.
  • Interview a Christian family that celebrates Easter and Write about what they do and why they do it. Write a summary of your interview and give an oral presentation to the class on what you found using props and anything appropriate to enhancing your presentation.
  • John Adams wrote, Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. He also wrote a paper called, American Independence was Achieved Upon the Principles of Christianity. Write a one page report on why he felt so strongly that this nation should be founded on Christian principles and quote some primary sources.
  • Review some of the famous teachings of Jesus Christ such as: the Golden Rule, the Sermon on the Mount, and parable of the Good Samaritan. Write a response to this teaching and how it is applied today in our culture and examples of how it has shaped our nation. Present a short oral presentation or skit to the class which demonstrates what you learned.
  • You will pretend to be a newspaper reporter and you will need to interview someone who works for a church near you. Ask them, what will their church be doing to remember Jesus’s death and resurrection? Why is Easter important to them? Write a one page article based on your interview.
  • {Added in edit: Bah, I just keep missing things today. Edited to add the middle of the first paragraph; I was manually typing it from the picture, so I apologize for any other mistakes.}
    This message has been edited by Morte, 12-10-2004 10:36 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by Swift, posted 12-10-2004 5:34 PM Swift has replied

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    Swift
    Inactive Member


    Message 19 of 28 (167112)
    12-11-2004 1:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 18 by Morte
    12-10-2004 10:33 PM


    Re: My guess
    more than a simple "mention of God"
    http://www.cultureandfamily.org/articledisplay.asp?id=410...
    It also seems that other schools had more than a small mention of Ahla
    in California to, but yet did nothing about it from what I'v heard so that seems just as fair that he should do that. Plus he was exploring why it was relievant to culture and nation today.
    This message has been edited by Swift, 12-11-2004 01:18 AM

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 20 of 28 (167116)
    12-11-2004 1:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 19 by Swift
    12-11-2004 1:17 AM


    Re: My guess
    Notice that no where in the article is the content of the alleged handout included or even copied. Also,looking at the links in the article that supposedly show bias, I found none.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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    bob_gray
    Member (Idle past 5014 days)
    Posts: 243
    From: Virginia
    Joined: 05-03-2004


    Message 21 of 28 (167524)
    12-12-2004 8:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 16 by jar
    12-10-2004 9:40 PM


    Re: California Case
    Thanks. I didn't know you could claim stuff that was not true. (at least not away from the message board)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 16 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 9:40 PM jar has replied

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 22 of 28 (167533)
    12-12-2004 8:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 21 by bob_gray
    12-12-2004 8:35 PM


    Re: California Case
    Thanks. I didn't know you could claim stuff that was not true.
    That is a very important point and something everyone should remember.
    Once the "Facts" of the case are accepted, all parties are stipulating that they are true. If the schoolboard allows that to be accepted as fact, then they must argue from that base.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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    lfen
    Member (Idle past 4678 days)
    Posts: 2189
    From: Oregon
    Joined: 06-24-2004


    Message 23 of 28 (167580)
    12-13-2004 12:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 20 by jar
    12-11-2004 1:26 AM


    Re: My guess
    I listened to a news story on the radio this afternoon (National PBS). The reporter was interviewing parents who had complained to the school. Of course the decision will be made in a court of law. The interviews with parents however indicated that this teacher was way over the line talking about his religion while teaching subjects such as math even. A couple of parents claimed their children felt intimidated.
    His excuse that he was just including relevant historical material doesn't sound right to me. We've already pointed out that many of the founding fathers were not Christian but Deists. Other teachers at the school were interviewed and they said that they did include material about religions role in history. So I've a lot of doubt about the spin put on this story.
    Well, it's obvious that I am opposed to the fundamentalist political religious agendas for the US. I'll await more evidence. But the story is emerging as not being what was protrayed in the OP for this thread.
    lfen

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    NosyNed
    Member
    Posts: 8996
    From: Canada
    Joined: 04-04-2003


    Message 24 of 28 (167582)
    12-13-2004 12:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Swift
    12-10-2004 12:26 AM


    Further comments Swift?
    It is beginning to seem like the story is not as portrayed. There seems to be some possibility that this teacher was deliberately violating the trust placed in him by those who allowed him to teach their children.
    Do you have any further comments while we wait the for the facts to be brought out in court?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Swift, posted 12-10-2004 12:26 AM Swift has not replied

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    coffee_addict
    Member (Idle past 477 days)
    Posts: 3645
    From: Indianapolis, IN
    Joined: 03-29-2004


    Message 25 of 28 (167584)
    12-13-2004 12:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 24 by NosyNed
    12-13-2004 12:26 AM


    Re: Further comments Swift?
    Is it possible that the teacher is a fundy and he did this to deliberately misrepresent the secular side to help further his cause? It is like an evolutionist claiming to be a creationist and make the most absurd statements possible just to discredit the real creatinists. Know what I mean?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 12-13-2004 12:26 AM NosyNed has replied

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    NosyNed
    Member
    Posts: 8996
    From: Canada
    Joined: 04-04-2003


    Message 26 of 28 (167585)
    12-13-2004 12:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 25 by coffee_addict
    12-13-2004 12:43 AM


    Misrepresenting.
    Is it possible that the teacher is a fundy and he did this to deliberately misrepresent the secular side to help further his cause? It is like an evolutionist claiming to be a creationist and make the most absurd statements possible just to discredit the real creatinists. Know what I mean?
    Possible? To me it is beginning to appear highly likely that he is a fundy and deliberately trying to play the martar. We do have to wait for facts to come out but things are starting to appear like the kind of dishonest tactics we have seen before.
    But it is not like he is claiming to be a secularist.
    It seems that fundy Christians have a deep dishonest streak in them.
    This message has been edited by NosyNed, 12-13-2004 12:46 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by coffee_addict, posted 12-13-2004 12:43 AM coffee_addict has replied

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    coffee_addict
    Member (Idle past 477 days)
    Posts: 3645
    From: Indianapolis, IN
    Joined: 03-29-2004


    Message 27 of 28 (167586)
    12-13-2004 12:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 26 by NosyNed
    12-13-2004 12:46 AM


    Re: Misrepresenting.
    Neddy writes:
    It seems that fundy Christians have a deep dishonest streak in them.
    Yes, I woulnd't be surprised if it turns out to be that way. Afterall, we do see over and over how creationists, who claim to be good chritians, lie and misrepresent science to help their cause.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by NosyNed, posted 12-13-2004 12:46 AM NosyNed has not replied

      
    Kevin
    Inactive Member


    Message 28 of 28 (170335)
    12-21-2004 3:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Swift
    12-10-2004 12:26 AM


    I don't mean to be rude but,
    This has already be said but..
    If you actually read the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution, you would would find that the Constitution does not mention god or Christianity. Only the Declaration of Independence mentions "Nature's God" and "Creator" which could mean many different things to many different people. To the people that wrote the Declaration of Independence it was in reference to a deist philosophy born out of the Enlightenment.
    If any school did ban these documents at all, I would think a school would ban them not on seperation of church and state grounds, but because of the Declaration of Independence does advocate the use of violence to achieve political ends, while the Constitution says the African-American slaves of the time are to be considered only 3/5ths of a human being in census taking. If this is a private school they can do whatever they want.
    This message has been edited by Kevin, 12-21-2004 03:17 AM

    If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to asess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?'
    -Richard Dawkins

    This message is a reply to:
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