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Author Topic:   Humans walked with dinosaurs
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4132 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 61 of 108 (296697)
03-20-2006 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by randman
03-20-2006 1:52 AM


Re: TalkOrigins/propaganda
You said nothing nice, and just spouted a bunch of crap about another thread, and are now whining about it in a juvenile fashion. Bottom line is I amply showed on that thread the distortion, illogic, etc,...of TO evo arguments. You guys don't see it?
i see it, its not from TO, it seems to be coming from your corner rand, you are distorting what TO says and you are bringing it up here for no reason other than to keep claiming things you can't seem to back up
Why am I not surprised...
i'm not surprised eather, just another one of your off-topic claims of "propaganda" that doesn't exist

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AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 62 of 108 (296729)
03-20-2006 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by randman
03-20-2006 1:52 AM


Off topic
Maybe I'll bump the thread with a closing statement - feel free to defend your position.
I asked you politely to cease your off topicness and take it to the appropriate thread. You ignored my request...twice. Do not reply further in this thread about propaganda and Talk Origins unless it is to refer people to the appropriate thread.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 63 of 108 (296743)
03-20-2006 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by knitrofreak
03-20-2006 12:10 AM


Re: on the creation side...
Ok first i havent looked closely at the fossil record but ...
So you are making assumptions based on a lack of information.
I dont believe that the fossil record is in chronological order.
Feel free to believe that the sun orbits the earth. What you believe is irrelevant to the issue of what the evidence shows. To maintain this position in a discussion on a science forum thread you are going to have to provide some kind of evidence for this position, just believing it is not enough.
Layers could have been shifted up and down to jumble things a bit.
And geologists have been able to determine where and when that has happened, they have sorted it out based on the evidence of the layers before radiometric dating became available. Radiometric dating confirmed the age relationships of the layers.
Like i said its been a while since i was in biology
This is actually geology and paleontology rather than biology.
If you want to talk about methods of dating the ages of things you can read {Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Part III}
http://EvC Forum: Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III)
As a starting point.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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knitrofreak
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 108 (296978)
03-21-2006 12:34 AM


dating dissagreement
Different Dating Techniques Should Consistently Agree but dont.
"In Australia, some wood found the Tertiary basalt was clearly buried in the lava flow that formed the basalt, as can be seen from the charring. The wood was "dated" by radiocarbon (14C) analysis at about 45,000 years old, but the basalt was "dated" by potassium-argon method at 45 million years old![19]"
Also after Mount St Helens Erupted they used some kind of dating to test the rock and it was way off, like 1,000s of yrs old give or take. This really goes to say really how accurate is radiometric dating and other kinds of dateing are.

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 65 of 108 (296982)
03-21-2006 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by knitrofreak
03-21-2006 12:34 AM


Re: dating dissagreement
I suggest you take any dating issues to the forum for that.
In fact, the dating correlation thread is a good place to start.
Message 1
You will find a lot that is the context for the two examples you raise.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 66 of 108 (297232)
03-22-2006 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by knitrofreak
03-21-2006 12:34 AM


Re: dating dissagreement
Please cite your creatortionista website so we can all chukle at it.
Different Dating Techniques Should Consistently Agree but dont.
"In Australia, some wood found the Tertiary basalt was clearly buried in the lava flow that formed the basalt, as can be seen from the charring. The wood was "dated" by radiocarbon (14C) analysis at about 45,000 years old, but the basalt was "dated" by potassium-argon method at 45 million years old![19]"
All this displays is your ignorance of what dating methods can and cannot do. As Ned noted you can start remedial classes at the Age Correelations thread. See you there or recant.
Radiocarbon dating has a limit of 50,000 years. This means that it is impossible to date something with radiocarbon dating to 45 million years. In other words this was done intentionally to misrepresent dating techniques by someone who absolutely knew that no "agreement" was possible between the two techniques in this situation.
Radiocarbon dating is also subject to interference from radioactivity from other sources causing a reversal of 14C decay, which can result in false "young" dates. This has been demonstrated in oil, coal and old wood samples.
Also after Mount St Helens Erupted they used some kind of dating to test the rock and it was way off, like 1,000s of yrs old give or take. This really goes to say really how accurate is radiometric dating and other kinds of dateing are.
No, what this shows is how unscrupulous certain people are at intentionally misrepresenting data. All you need is enough knowledge to know what can produce false readings, and then go look for instances of them to then present to ignorant people as "proof" that errors are possible. This is not science, it is not honesty, it is shinola.
Do you like being mislead? Read the other thread and learn something.
msg63 writes:
This is actually geology and paleontology rather than biology.
If you want to talk about methods of dating the ages of things you can read {Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Part III}
http://EvC Forum: Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III)
Replying or continuing this discussion here is OFF TOPIC and needs to be taken to the thread given to discuss further.
Enjoy.
{abe} link and OT notice {/abe}
This message has been edited by RAZD, 03*22*2006 07:52 AM

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knitrofreak
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 108 (297981)
03-25-2006 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by RAZD
03-20-2006 7:58 AM


Re: on the creation side...
"Feel free to believe that the sun orbits the earth. What you believe is irrelevant to the issue of what the evidence shows."
Exactly. There is no evidence for neo darwinistic evolution.
"This is actually geology and paleontology rather than biology."
I know that. I was refering to what I had learned in Biology about the fossil record. Our school doesnt have alot of class choice

This message is a reply to:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4132 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 68 of 108 (298209)
03-26-2006 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by knitrofreak
03-25-2006 12:53 AM


Re: on the creation side...
Exactly. There is no evidence for neo darwinistic evolution.
do you have any basis for this claim? or are you just making the typical over-generalzation that all creationists like to make
becides most of evolution hasn't been darwinian in a long time, just read some threads in the science part of the board to see lots of examples of evolution

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 69 of 108 (298287)
03-26-2006 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by knitrofreak
03-25-2006 12:53 AM


Re: on the creation side...
msg 67 writes:
There is no evidence for neo darwinistic evolution.
One question here is do you mean the specific subset of evolution sometimes refered to as neo-darwinism and sometimes as the modern evolutionary systhesis or are just using a term found on a website?
Modern synthesis - Wikipedia
"The major tenets of the evolutionary synthesis, then, were that populations contain genetic variation that arises by random (ie. not adaptively directed) mutation and recombination; that populations evolve by changes in gene frequency brought about by random genetic drift, gene flow, and especially natural selection; that most adaptive genetic variants have individually slight phenotypic effects so that phenotypic changes are gradual (although some alleles with discrete effects may be advantageous, as in certain color polymorphisms); that diversification comes about by speciation, which normally entails the gradual evolution of reproductive isolation among populations; and that these processes, continued for sufficiently long, give rise to changes of such great magnitude as to warrant the designation of higher taxonomic levels (genera, families, and so forth)..."
” Futuyma, D.J. in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates, 1986; p.12
Certainly there is evidence of this having happened, there are many scientific papers that detail instances of each of these elements.
To claim that there is NO evidence is either to assert a belief from a background of ignorance or to deny the evidence that contradicts the belief.
The first has already been demonstrated:
RAZD, msg 63 writes:
(knitrofreak, msg 57) writes:
Ok first i havent looked closely at the fossil record but ...
So you are making assumptions based on a lack of information.
Ignorance can be cured with learning, denial is a different matter. Those who deny evidence that does exist remain ignorant willfully, by choice. Denial of evidence in order to support a belief is the kind of thing needed to believe that the sun orbits the earth. Denial of evidence is NOT needed however to believe (whether based on information you have been given but have not personally verified or not) that the earth orbits the sun (actually a center of mass of the solar system near the center of the sun).
Denial of evidence then is the key to seeing how valid a belief system is: the more denial that is required the less valid the system.
msg67 writes:
I was refering to what I had learned in Biology about the fossil record. Our school doesnt have alot of class choice
Just to be clear, biology in general and evolution in specific does not need nor rely on the fossil record for evidence that the theories involved are valid. The paragraph quoted above makes no reference to the fossil record. Rather the fossil record is secondary evidence - various predictions can be made from the theories of evolution for what we should see in the fossil record - we do see them - and what we should NOT see in the fossil record - we do not see them - so the amount of fossil evidence - and any "lack" of certain "transitionals" - is irrelevant. Any perceived absence in the fossil record is NOT evidence that evolution is falsified or incomplete.
The question here (on this topic) is whether there is evidence of co-existence of humans and (large non-bird) dinosaurs, and there is no such evidence that stands up to scrutiny (ie is not a hoax).
This is consistent with evolution, but not necessary.
This is inconsistent - and necessary - for a YEC fundamentalist belief.
Enjoy.
ps - As a final point, "neo darwinistic evolution" is only one theory of evolution.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 03*26*2006 01:28 PM
This message has been edited by RAZD, 03*26*2006 01:31 PM

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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knitrofreak
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 108 (298384)
03-26-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by RAZD
03-26-2006 11:27 AM


Re: on the creation side...
Yes thanks for saying that. I guess I shouldnt be so dogmatic about there isnt evidence for evolution even though I still dont believe it. Just because they say it it in Scientific Journals doenst make it true. In my biology textbook last year they were putting lots of things that have been proven untrue.
I was just saying there is no evidence that one animal turned completely into another. Scientists have been bombarding fruit flys with radiation for years and what do they get. A different type of fly or insect? NO just more mutatated messed up fruit flys.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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knitrofreak
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 108 (298389)
03-26-2006 5:59 PM


Searching Questions for Evolutionists
Do You Believe that Evolution is True?
If so, then provide an answer to the following questions. "Evolution" in this context is the idea that natural, undirected processes are sufficient to account for the existence of all natural things.
1. Something from nothing?
The "Big Bang", the most widely accepted theory of the beginning of the universe, states that everything developed from a small dense cloud of subatomic particles and radiation which exploded, forming hydrogen (and some helium) gas. Where did this energy/matter come from? How reasonable is it to assume it came into being from nothing? And even if it did come into being, what would cause it to explode?
We know from common experience that explosions are destructive and lead to disorder. How reasonable is it to assume that a "big bang" explosion produced the opposite effect - increasing "information", order and the formation of useful structures, such as stars and planets, and eventually people?
2. Physical laws an accident?
We know the universe is governed by several fundamental physical laws, such as electromagnetic forces, gravity, conservation of mass and energy, etc. The activities of our universe depend upon these principles like a computer program depends upon the existence of computer hardware with an instruction set. How reasonable is it to say that these great controlling principles developed by accident?
3. Order from disorder?
The Second Law of Thermodynamics may be the most verified law of science. It states that systems become more disordered over time, unless energy is supplied and directed to create order. Evolutionists says that the opposite has taken place - that order increased over time, without any directed energy. How can this be?
ASIDE: Evolutionists commonly object that the Second Law applies to closed, or isolated systems, and that the Earth is certainly not a closed system (it gets lots of raw energy from the Sun, for example). However, all systems, whether open or closed, tend to deteriorate. For example, living organisms are open systems but they all decay and die. Also, the universe in total is a closed system. To say that the chaos of the big bang has transformed itself into the human brain with its 120 trillion connections is a clear violation of the Second Law.
We should also point out that the availability of raw energy to a system is a necessary but far from sufficient condition for a local decrease in entropy to occur. Certainly the application of a blow torch to bicycle parts will not result in a bicycle being assembled - only the careful application of directed energy will, such as from the hands of a person following a plan. The presence of energy from the Sun does NOT solve the evolutionist's problem of how increasing order could occur on the Earth, contrary to the Second Law.
4. Information from Randomness?
Information theory states that "information" never arises out of randomness or chance events. Our human experience verifies this every day. How can the origin of the tremendous increase in information from simple organisms up to man be accounted for? Information is always introduced from the outside. It is impossible for natural processes to produce their own actual information, or meaning, which is what evolutionists claim has happened. Random typing might produce the string "dog", but it only means something to an intelligent observer who has applied a definition to this sequence of letters. The generation of information always requires intelligence, yet evolution claims that no intelligence was involved in the ultimate formation of a human being whose many systems contain vast amounts of information.
5. Life from dead chemicals?
Evolutionists claim that life formed from non-life (dead chemicals), so-called "abiogenesis", even though it is a biological law ("biogenesis") that life only comes from life. The probability of the simplest imaginable replicating system forming by itself from non-living chemicals has been calculated to be so very small as to be essentially zero - much less than one chance in the number of electron-sized particles that could fit in the entire visible universe! Given these odds, is it reasonable to believe that life formed itself?
6. Complex DNA and RNA by chance?
The continued existence (the reproduction) of a cell requires both DNA (the "plan") and RNA (the "copy mechanism"), both of which are tremendously complex. How reasonable is it to believe that these two co-dependent necessities came into existence by chance at exactly the same time?
7. Life is complex.
We know and appreciate the tremendous amount of intelligent design and planning that went into landing a man on the moon. Yet the complexity of this task pales in comparison to the complexity of even the simplest life form. How reasonable is it to believe that purely natural processes, with no designer, no intelligence, and no plan, produced a human being.
8. Where are the transitional fossils?
If evolution has taken place our museums should be overflowing with the skeletons of countless transitional forms. Yet after over one hundred years of intense searching only a small number of transitional candidates are touted as proof of evolution. If evolution has really taken place, where are the transitional forms? And why does the fossil record actually show all species first appearing fully formed, with most nearly identical to current instances of the species?
ASIDE: Most of the examples touted by evolutionists concentrate on just one feature of the anatomy, like a particular bone or the skull. A true transitional fossil should be intermediate in many if not all aspects. The next time someone shows you how this bone changed over time, ask them about the rest of the creature too!
Many evolutionists still like to believe in the "scarcity" of the fossil record. Yet simple statistics will show that given you have found a number of fossil instances of a creature, the chances that you have missed every one of its imagined predecessors is very small. Consider the trilobites for example. These fossils are so common you can buy one for under $20, yet no fossils of a predecessor have been found!.
9. Could an intermediate even survive?
Evolution requires the transition from one kind to another to be gradual. And don't forget that "natural selection" is supposed to retain those individuals which have developed an advantage of some sort. How could an animal intermediate between one kind and another even survive (and why would it ever be selected for), when it would not be well-suited to either its old environment or its new environment? Can you even imagine a possible sequence of small changes which takes a creature from one kind to another, all the while keeping it not only alive, but improved?
ASIDE: Certainly a "light-sensitive spot" is better than no vision at all. But why would such a spot even develop? (evolutionists like to take this for granted). And even if it did develop, to believe that mutations of such a spot eventually brought about the tremendous complexities of the human eye strains all common sense and experience.
10. Reproduction without reproduction?
A main tenet of evolution is the idea that things develop by an (unguided) series of small changes, caused by mutations, which are "selected" for, keeping the "better" changes" over a very long period of time. How could the ability to reproduce evolve, without the ability to reproduce? Can you even imagine a theoretical scenario which would allow this to happen? And why would evolution produce two sexes, many times over? Asexual reproduction would seem to be more likely and efficient!
ASIDE: To relegate the question of reproduction to "abiogenesis" does NOT address the problem. To assume existing, reproducing life for the principles of evolution to work on is a HUGE assumption which is seldom focused on in popular discussions.
11. Plants without photosynthesis?
The process of photosynthesis in plants is very complex. How could the first plant survive unless it already possessed this remarkable capability?
12. How do you explain symbiotic relationships?
There are many examples of plants and animals which have a "symbiotic" relationship (they need each other to survive). How can evolution explain this?
13. It's no good unless it's complete.
We know from everyday experience that an item is not generally useful until it is complete, whether it be a car, a cake, or a computer program. Why would natural selection start to make an eye, or an ear, or a wing (or anything else) when this item would not benefit the animal until it was completed?
ASIDE: Note that even a "light-sensitive spot" or the simplest version of any feature is far from a "one-jump" change that is trivial to produce.
14. Explain metamorphosis!
How can evolution explain the metamorphosis of the butterfly? Once the caterpillar evolves into the "mass of jelly" (out of which the butterfly comes), wouldn't it appear to be "stuck"?
15. It should be easy to show evolution.
If evolution is the grand mechanism that has produced all natural things from a simple gas, surely this mechanism must be easily seen. It should be possible to prove its existence in a matter of weeks or days, if not hours. Yet scientists have been bombarding countless generations of fruit flies with radiation for several decades in order to show evolution in action and still have only produced ... more (deformed) fruit flies. How reasonable is it to believe that evolution is a fact when even the simplest of experiments has not been able to document it?
ASIDE: The artificial creation of a new species is far too small of a change to prove that true "macro-evolution" is possible. A higher-order change, where the information content of the organism has been increased should be showable and is not. Developing a new species changes the existing information, but does not add new information, such as would be needed for a new organ, for example.
16. Complex things require intelligent design folks!
People are intelligent. If a team of engineers were to one day design a robot which could cross all types of terrain, could dig large holes, could carry several times its weight, found its own energy sources, could make more robots like itself, and was only 1/8 of an inch tall, we would marvel at this achievement. All of our life's experiences lead us to know that such a robot could never come about by accident, or assemble itself by chance, even if all of the parts were available laying next to each other. And we are certain beyond doubt that a canister of hydrogen gas, no matter how long we left it there or what type of raw energy we might apply to it, would never result in such a robot being produced. But we already have such a "robot" - it is called an "ant", and we squash them because they are "nothing" compared to people. And God made them, and he made us. Can there be any other explanation?

Large off topic Cut & Paste hidden

This message has been edited by AdminJar, 03-26-2006 05:17 PM

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 72 of 108 (298392)
03-26-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by knitrofreak
03-26-2006 5:59 PM


Re: Searching Questions for Evolutionists

This message is a reply to:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 108 (298393)
03-26-2006 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by knitrofreak
03-26-2006 5:59 PM


You know, we don't debate boards here...
but rather other members.
Posting a long cut&paste section from another site, particularly without attribution, is a direct violation of forum rules. It also shows just how weak your arguments are.
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 03-26-2006 05:08 PM

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  • This message is a reply to:
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    Chiroptera
    Inactive Member


    Message 74 of 108 (298394)
    03-26-2006 6:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 71 by knitrofreak
    03-26-2006 5:59 PM


    Searching Questions for Evolutionists -- but not here
    Anyone of these would be a good topic for an entire thread, knitofreak. Why don't you look around to see whether these have been discussed before? If not, or if the discussions don't address your concerns, you can start a new thread on the topic.
    This thread is about whether there is credible evidence that dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time. It would be way, way off-topic to give the detailed answers that each of your questions deserves.

    "Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
    -- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

    This message is a reply to:
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    Coragyps
    Member (Idle past 756 days)
    Posts: 5553
    From: Snyder, Texas, USA
    Joined: 11-12-2002


    Message 75 of 108 (298396)
    03-26-2006 6:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 74 by Chiroptera
    03-26-2006 6:08 PM


    Re: Searching Questions for Evolutionists -- but not here
    to give the detailed answers that each of your questions deserves.
    Not to even mention that "deserves" is way too strong a term for points like #14 - butterflies "evolving" from caterpillars??!!

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