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Author
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Topic: YEC Problem with Science Above and Beyond Evolution
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Re: that same old deception again
Maybe it's because I should be in bed but I could have sworn you'd spent large parts of the last four pages of posts whining about this thread not being for specifics. lol. that's ok, i'm happy to provide them, since i have some idea what i'm talking about (admittedly, not a whole lot), and i actually am interested in honest debate.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 284 by MangyTiger, posted 06-25-2006 1:51 AM | | MangyTiger has not replied |
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1462 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: that same old deception again
creationists have thought about what actually exists and understand it in relation to the Flood. A single floodplain is what you get from a local flood, not a flood that involves ocean currents and the dissolving of whole continents and disturbances of the sea floor.
pointless speculation and special pleading. a flood looks like a flood because there is no single current, or because the current is violent and multi-directional. this mixes things into a single strata, not multiple. And you know this because you witnessed the Noachic Flood, right? Speaking of pointless speculation.
Tell me exactly what the genetic evidence for a bottleneck 4500 years ago should look like. Be specific. Include genetic evidence for known recent bottlenecks.
being able to trace all mitochondrial dna of each "kind" to a single individual, within the last 6,000 years. there was a such a bottleneck in the human genome under discussion somewhat recently, "mitochondrial eve" showing that every female alive today is descended from a single individual. if the ark story is true, we should expect similar results in every "kind" of animal, all of which line up to the same general timeframe. More specificity is needed Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 288 of 312 (326003)
06-25-2006 1:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
06-25-2006 1:55 AM
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Re: that same old deception again
faith, that's as specific as i can get without you giving me a precise date for the flood.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 287 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 1:55 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 289 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 2:00 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1462 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: that same old deception again
I don't know the PRECISE date. Somewhere around 4500 years ago.
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1462 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: that same old deception again
Maybe it's because I should be in bed but I could have sworn you'd spent large parts of the last four pages of posts whining about this thread not being for specifics. I gave up. The delinquents refused to reform.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 284 by MangyTiger, posted 06-25-2006 1:51 AM | | MangyTiger has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 291 of 312 (326006)
06-25-2006 2:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
06-25-2006 2:00 AM
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Re: that same old deception again
I don't know the PRECISE date. not specific enough! (just kidding)
Somewhere around 4500 years ago. then we should expect to be able to trace the mitochondrial dna of every single individual member of a kind to a single individual, approximately 4500 years ago. for every kind, there should only be a single variety of mitochondrial dna. no, provided we determine what a "kind" is, you have a working hypothesis. go prove it one way or the other. welcome to science.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 289 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 2:00 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 295 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 2:15 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4696 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: 06-24-2004
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Re: that same old deception again
not to rag on the mormons much more, but it is my educated opinion that, for as many holes as there are in the bible, the bom is downright spurious in comparison. I'm not crazy about the BOM either, but there are millions of Mormons who live their lives believing it as the delivered word of God. I can't distinguish their belief process from the belief processes of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Bahai's etc. I'm partial to the Upanishads but I don't take the myths in them literally and they could be wrong about some fundamental stuff. The jury is still out. The sense I mean is found not in the books but in the believers. That believers convert from one religion to another demonstrates a similiar psychological process. Looking at a book all I see is something humans have written in a human language with human concepts. I can't tell from the book if its an inspired word of God. I tell that because there are people making that claim for it. (Well, I guess the Koran explicitly claims to be the word of God. I know little about it though.) lfen
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1462 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: that same old deception again
Thanks for the link.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 284 by MangyTiger, posted 06-25-2006 1:51 AM | | MangyTiger has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 294 of 312 (326010)
06-25-2006 2:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 292 by lfen
06-25-2006 2:08 AM
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Re: that same old deception again
I'm not crazy about the BOM either, but there are millions of Mormons who live their lives believing it as the delivered word of God. I can't distinguish their belief process from the belief processes of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Bahai's etc. yes, true. they are every bit as nuts about their book as anybody else is about theirs.
The sense I mean is found not in the books but in the believers. fair 'nuff.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 292 by lfen, posted 06-25-2006 2:08 AM | | lfen has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1462 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: that same old deception again
Don't you need to know exatly how many generations intervene? How does number of years tell you anything? Why a single individual? Bottlenecks may reduce to a small number of individual that interbreed. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 296 of 312 (326012)
06-25-2006 2:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
06-25-2006 2:15 AM
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Re: that same old deception again
Don't you need to know exatly how many generations intervene? How does number of years tell you anything? well, since you accept population genetics... it has something with family trees, and at what point they diverge.
Why a single individual? Bottlenecks may reduce to a small number of individual that interbreed. ...two of every kind on the ark? one is female. that's the mitochondria we are looking for.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 295 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 2:15 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 297 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 2:29 AM | | arachnophilia has replied | | | Message 299 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 2:34 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1462 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: that same old deception again
That's only the unclean beasts. The clean were taken in sevens.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 298 of 312 (326015)
06-25-2006 2:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 297 by Faith
06-25-2006 2:29 AM
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Re: that same old deception again
That's only the unclean beasts. The clean were taken in sevens. uh, try again.
quote:
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
the clean beasts were taken in sevens so they could be sacrificed. also so they could be eaten -- remember the very next chapter, where god tells noah he can eat meat?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 297 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 2:29 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 300 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 2:35 AM | | arachnophilia has replied | | | Message 303 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 2:40 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1462 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: that same old deception again
well, since you accept population genetics... it has something with family trees, and at what point they diverge And that's about number of actual generations, not years.
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1462 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: that same old deception again
Where do you get that five of each Kind were sacrificed? Sounds like ONE of each was taken, leaving six, or three pairs. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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