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Author Topic:   Which religion's creation story should be taught?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 151 of 331 (572434)
08-05-2010 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by JRTjr
08-05-2010 11:10 AM


Re: Except it does violate the 1st amendment!?
I agree with Madison on the point that he is making here; which is that if you start allowing the government to make laws concerning religion (The Church) then the government can begin restricting the free exercise of religion. Which, by the way, is exactly what the First Amendment was placed into the Constitution to prevent: keeping the government from restricting the free exercise of religion. Not to keep religious expression out of the Government.
You keep ignoring the Establishment Clause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by JRTjr, posted 08-05-2010 11:10 AM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 152 of 331 (572446)
08-05-2010 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by JRTjr
08-04-2010 2:44 PM


Not a US document
That my be so, however, the phrase We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights in the ‘Declaration of Independence’ is nether an after though (like the Amendments to the ‘Constitution’) nor something added to warred of evil spirits.
First of all, the Declaration is not a US legal document. Secondly, the use of "creator", is not a reference to the christian god. This and the other terms used in the declaration like Nature’s God, and Divine Providence were terms used in the deism that was common among many of the founding fathers. Just looking at the beliefs of the writer of the declaration will show that it is in no way a reference to the Christan god. It could be a reference to any deity and no deity. That is the beauty of the founding fathers. They did not set much in stone.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by JRTjr, posted 08-04-2010 2:44 PM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4305 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 153 of 331 (572919)
08-08-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Dr Adequate
07-01-2010 9:24 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
Dear Dr. Adequate,
Dr. Adequate writes:
JRTjr writes:
I’ll close with this question: How does a Bible, sitting in a display case, in front of a court house prohibit the free exercise of an atheist’s religion?; Or a Muslim?; Or Buddhist?
It doesn't. It violates the establishment clause. Duh.
O.K., Please, explain to me in what way does ‘a Bible, sitting in a display case, in front of a court house’ violate the First Amendment? {I.e. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Thank you for your time and interest,
JRTjr

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 Message 122 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-01-2010 9:24 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by jar, posted 08-08-2010 4:53 PM JRTjr has not replied
 Message 155 by bluescat48, posted 08-08-2010 5:08 PM JRTjr has replied
 Message 156 by jar, posted 08-08-2010 5:15 PM JRTjr has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 154 of 331 (572921)
08-08-2010 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by JRTjr
08-08-2010 4:26 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
JRTjt writes:
O.K., Please, explain to me in what way does ‘a Bible, sitting in a display case, in front of a court house’ violate the First Amendment? {I.e. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
It is outside a Court House.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by JRTjr, posted 08-08-2010 4:26 PM JRTjr has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 155 of 331 (572922)
08-08-2010 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by JRTjr
08-08-2010 4:26 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
O.K., Please, explain to me in what way does ‘a Bible, sitting in a display case, in front of a court house’ violate the First Amendment?
Basically it is making a law respecting an establishment of religion.
It would not if there were religious texts of all religions and lack of religion, not just one, ie it is giving a higher status to the Xtian religions than to Islam, Taoist, Shinto etc.
Edited by bluescat48, : clarity

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 156 of 331 (572924)
08-08-2010 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by JRTjr
08-08-2010 4:26 PM


Back to teaching Creation myths
This also has nothing to do with whether the Christian Creation myths should be taught.
Personally, I think a course in Comparative religion or Sacred Studies should be part of a basic education. Kids should be taught what different religions have had to say over history and the horrors caused by religion taught to all kids.
I also think teaching kids all the different creation myths, or at least many of the more interesting ones is a great idea. The two mutually exclusive Judaic-Muslim-Christian myths though are a special case.
The Judaic religion is the only religion I'm aware of where mutually exclusive creation myths are included and teaching them will help the kids learn that Bibles are the product of man and not god.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by JRTjr, posted 08-08-2010 4:26 PM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by JRTjr, posted 09-30-2010 4:47 PM jar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 157 of 331 (572930)
08-08-2010 5:51 PM


By the way, we now have an ongoing thread on Separation of Church and State, so perhaps we could take discussion of the First Amendment over there and leave this thread to it original purpose.

  
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4305 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 158 of 331 (573264)
08-10-2010 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by hooah212002
07-01-2010 9:26 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
Dear Hooah212002,
First, thank you for your interest in our discussion. I hope you will become a regular participant.
Hooah212002 writes:
Please tell me, in detail, what religion an atheist would ascribe to?
Religion, according to ‘Dictionary.Com’ is:
2. A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. The body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
6. Something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
(Dictionary.com Unabridged. Based on the Random House Dictionary, Random House, Inc. 2010.)
So, the fervently healed belief that this universe is ‘all that there is’ can be defined as a ‘Religion’ and, of course, the name of that ‘Religion’ is ‘Atheism’.
I hope that clears it up for you.
Hope to hear from you again; soon,
JRTjr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by hooah212002, posted 07-01-2010 9:26 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by hooah212002, posted 08-10-2010 4:26 PM JRTjr has replied
 Message 160 by bluescat48, posted 08-10-2010 5:40 PM JRTjr has replied
 Message 161 by jar, posted 08-10-2010 6:11 PM JRTjr has replied
 Message 162 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-10-2010 7:37 PM JRTjr has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 159 of 331 (573265)
08-10-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by JRTjr
08-10-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
I hope you will become a regular participant.
Doubtful since your incessant use of colors that damn near blend with the background of the site makes reading your drivel a most painful experience.
Ahh, so atheists are of the atheism religion. As if atheism is a religion. Do you even know what atheism is?????? I'll tell you what it is NOT: a religion.
I hope that clears it up for you.
No, you cleared up fuck all. I take that back. You cleared up that you have a preconceived notion of what an atheist is and you are wrong.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by JRTjr, posted 08-10-2010 4:15 PM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 160 of 331 (573277)
08-10-2010 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by JRTjr
08-10-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
So, the fervently healed belief that this universe is ‘all that there is’ can be defined as a ‘Religion’ and, of course, the name of that ‘Religion’ is ‘Atheism’.
I hope that clears it up for you.
So which of the three points is Atheism alleged to belong.
I got news for you, it is none of the above.
There is nothing in which all ateists adhere save for thre non-existance of sky daddies and other mythological creatures.
That does not fit with any of the above. Besides what else is there besides the universe. By definition, universe is everything.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by JRTjr, posted 08-10-2010 4:15 PM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 161 of 331 (573282)
08-10-2010 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by JRTjr
08-10-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
JRTjr writes:
So, the fervently healed belief that this universe is ‘all that there is’ can be defined as a ‘Religion’ and, of course, the name of that ‘Religion’ is ‘Atheism’.
To claim that there is some "fervently held belief that this universe is all that is" or even "a belief that this universe is all that is" are in themselves simply misrepresentations of atheism.
First, they are simply word salad, strawman creations that have no meaning in reality and serve only as an attempt misdirect the audience attention while you try to palm the pea and change the subject.
Second, they have nothing to do with the subject of atheism.
Third, they deal with concepts unrelated to the topic of this thread which is "Which religion's creation story should be taught?".
Fourth, should it be decided that the two mutually exclusive and contradictory Judaic-Muslim-Christian creation myths should be included among the creation stories taught, how much time should be set aside to help the kids understand why the people that decided on the stories to include in the Bible chose to include both folk tales and even place the newer, younger folk tale first?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by JRTjr, posted 08-10-2010 4:15 PM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 162 of 331 (573305)
08-10-2010 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by JRTjr
08-10-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
So, the fervently healed belief that this universe is ‘all that there is’ can be defined as a ‘Religion’ and, of course, the name of that ‘Religion’ is ‘Atheism’.
While that is debatable, for the purposes of the First Amendment atheism is indeed counted as a religion; which is why, for example, an atheist public school teacher would not be allowed teach students that there is no God, nor could a school board packed with atheists make it compulsory for all teachers so to teach.
Do you want to change that in the name of free exercise?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by JRTjr, posted 10-01-2010 2:02 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4305 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 163 of 331 (573337)
08-10-2010 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by purpledawn
07-02-2010 7:03 AM


Re: Exercise of Religion
Dear Purpledawn,
Great to hear from you again; I would love to respond to everything you’ve posted here but I am endeavoring to keep my post brief.
Purpledawn writes:
Actually, I wanted to know what the exercise of the Christian religion actually entails?
True Christianity is not as much a ‘religiona’ in the belief system sense; as it is a relationship with the Creator of the Universes.
OR, let me put it this way: I do not consider myself a ‘Christian’ because of ‘religiously held beliefs’ as much as because of Whom I believe in, Trust in, cling to, and rely onB; namely Yahushua Mashiach (Jesus the Christ).
Some one once said: that The religions of the world are man’s attempt to find God; in ‘Christianity’ it is God that has searched out (is working toward a relationship with) man.
Yahushua sums up the duties of a ‘Christian’ this way: You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect). This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment.
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself.
These two commandments [a]sum up and upon them depend all the Law and the Prophets.
Again, I would like to touch on some of the other things you mention here; I just do not have the space/time. As it is; at this moment I have 16 other replies to try to get to.
God Bless,
JRTjr
_______________________________________________________
A. religion /rɪˈlɪdʒ ən/ [ri-lij-uh n]
—noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.
religions, Archaic . religious rites.
8.
Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
B. John 3:16, 17 (Amplified Bible)
16For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
17For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.

C. Matthew 22: 37 - 40 (Amplified Bible)

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 Message 129 by purpledawn, posted 07-02-2010 7:03 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by purpledawn, posted 08-11-2010 6:49 AM JRTjr has replied

  
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4305 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 164 of 331 (573344)
08-10-2010 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Theodoric
07-02-2010 9:58 AM


Dear Theodoric,
Thank you for your interest.
Theodoric writes:
Please show me where this is evidenced? Just one little source please.
I have actually given several examples in this string; however let’s just start with the Declaration of Independence which sited more then two dozen Biblical violations as the justification for their need for independence from England.
Declaration of Independence
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
(emphasis added)
You may also want to check out this link: Legal Information Institute
Thank you for your Time,
JRTjr
Edited by JRTjr, : No reason given.

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 Message 167 by Theodoric, posted 08-11-2010 10:55 AM JRTjr has replied
 Message 168 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2010 1:03 PM JRTjr has replied
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 165 of 331 (573345)
08-10-2010 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by JRTjr
08-10-2010 11:16 PM


I have actually given several examples in this string; however let’s just start with the Declaration of Independence which sited more then two dozen Biblical violations as the justification for their need for independence from England.
No.

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