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Author Topic:   How about teaching evolution at Sunday school?
sfs
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 91 of 106 (70612)
12-02-2003 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Apostle
12-02-2003 12:02 AM


quote:
It is not a reality of science that man and ape have a common ancestor.
[...]
But please let us not trick ourselves into believing that the many evolutionary claims are in fact 'realities of science.'
I'm afraid you're quite mistaken here. I study human genetic variation for a living, and there simply is no way of understanding the genetic data other than as a product of evolution. It is the only framework available, and everyone in the field, regardless of their religion, uses it. That is the reality in my science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Apostle, posted 12-02-2003 12:02 AM Apostle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Apostle, posted 12-13-2003 5:24 PM sfs has not replied

  
Apostle
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 106 (72736)
12-13-2003 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by sfs
12-02-2003 3:42 PM


sfs,
I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the various issues. Most particularly I would be interested in seeing the evidence you have documenting macroevolution. I am also curious that since there is no fossil transitionary forms, what you would point to in support of the evolution of species from one bacteria to all the living beings today.
However, this is not going to fit under the current topic so we will have to leave it for another day.
Respectfully,
Apostle

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Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by NosyNed, posted 12-13-2003 6:14 PM Apostle has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 93 of 106 (72748)
12-13-2003 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Apostle
12-13-2003 5:24 PM


some thoughts
Good of you to notice that you might be heading off topic. If you want to see some thoughts on "no fossil transitionary forms" you might want to browse this thread (and perhaps add to it).
fossil record

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Apostle
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 106 (74188)
12-19-2003 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by NosyNed
12-13-2003 6:14 PM


Re: some thoughts
I will indeed take a look at this link. If necessary I might gain from adding to it.
Apostle

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k.kslick
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 106 (78756)
01-15-2004 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jdean33442
02-03-2003 2:16 AM


ok....
They can teach evolution in Sunday Schools when the schools start teaching alternatives to there ONE magic theory. Just think though, schools are meant to teach, if they teach, they should teach both sides. Sunday School is the group of people who believe the truth, so why teach a lie? Either way, I have learned to recognize the lies the state demands that our innocent teachers HAVE TO teach.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by sfs, posted 01-15-2004 10:09 PM k.kslick has replied
 Message 97 by Asgara, posted 01-15-2004 10:12 PM k.kslick has not replied
 Message 104 by Loudmouth, posted 01-16-2004 5:16 PM k.kslick has not replied

  
sfs
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 96 of 106 (78761)
01-15-2004 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by k.kslick
01-15-2004 10:01 PM


quote:
They can teach evolution in Sunday Schools when the schools start teaching alternatives to there ONE magic theory. Just think though, schools are meant to teach, if they teach, they should teach both sides. Sunday School is the group of people who believe the truth, so why teach a lie? Either way, I have learned to recognize the lies the state demands that our innocent teachers HAVE TO teach.
If the school class is a science class, there aren't two sides to teach. There is a scientific theory, which is evolution. There's also a mass of religiously motivated, incoherent objections to evolution, but there is no alternative theory to explain the data. Pretending that there is an alternative would indeed be to teach a lie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by k.kslick, posted 01-15-2004 10:01 PM k.kslick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by k.kslick, posted 01-15-2004 10:51 PM sfs has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 97 of 106 (78762)
01-15-2004 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by k.kslick
01-15-2004 10:01 PM


Re: ok....
Hi K.
Ah to be so young and so dogmatic. When someone can give us another scientific theory that explains all the evidence, I'm sure it will start being taught.
Maybe you can find an approriate thread to present your evidence for "The Truthtm"

Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

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k.kslick
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 106 (78776)
01-15-2004 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by sfs
01-15-2004 10:09 PM


still a theory
evolution is still just a theory
and creationism is a theory with religous backup.
Wake up!

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Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 99 of 106 (78777)
01-15-2004 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by k.kslick
01-15-2004 10:51 PM


Re: still a theory
Maybe you could enlighten us as to just what a "theory" is.
And what is meant by "religious backup"?

Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 100 of 106 (78807)
01-16-2004 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Asgara
01-15-2004 10:12 PM


so Young
It is a bit scary since people often harden in their views as they age (not me of course, neither hardened or aged! ((mm that might not have come out as planned )) ). If KK starts where he is he'll not be able to learn anything new by the time he's 20.

Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 101 of 106 (78853)
01-16-2004 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by NosyNed
01-16-2004 12:54 AM


Re: so Young
Hi NosyNed:
NosyNed writes:
If KK starts where he is he'll not be able to learn anything new by the time he's 20.
How true...but then, I don't think KK really cares to learn anything new even now...he believes he knows it all already.

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 Message 100 by NosyNed, posted 01-16-2004 12:54 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
sfs
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 102 of 106 (78861)
01-16-2004 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by NosyNed
01-16-2004 12:54 AM


quote:
It is a bit scary since people often harden in their views as they age
It can go either way. Lots of people are dogmatic as teenagers and become more aware of uncertainty and ambiguity as they mature.

An opinion can be argued with; a conviction is best shot. T.E. Lawrence

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 Message 100 by NosyNed, posted 01-16-2004 12:54 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 103 of 106 (78892)
01-16-2004 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by sfs
01-16-2004 11:17 AM


Ah yes....Dylan
Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollin' high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
Proud 'neath heated brow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.
Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.
Girls' faces formed the forward path
From phony jealousy
To memorizing politics
Of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists
Unthought of, though, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.
A self-ordained professor's tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty
Is just equality in school
"Equality," I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.
In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

I always assumed that the more people insisted they were mature, the less they actually were. True maturity comes from the understanding of how immature we truly are.

Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by sfs, posted 01-16-2004 11:17 AM sfs has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 106 (78918)
01-16-2004 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by k.kslick
01-15-2004 10:01 PM


Re: ok....
quote:
They can teach evolution in Sunday Schools when the schools start teaching alternatives to there ONE magic theory. Just think though, schools are meant to teach, if they teach, they should teach both sides. Sunday School is the group of people who believe the truth, so why teach a lie? Either way, I have learned to recognize the lies the state demands that our innocent teachers HAVE TO teach.
So you would like to be taught the creation stories found in Native American religions, Hinduism, Native African religions? The evidence that supposedly can apply to Christian creationism could just as easily support the other creation stories. Why should only the Christian creation story be taught when people of every creed and religion are in the educational system? Can you find any evidence that would support the Christian view of creation theory over other creation views in other religions? Why couldn't a pantheon of gods create the earth instead of a single God, or even aliens travelling back in time with technology far superior than anything we could even dream of? You seem to have religious blinders on and haven't realized the breadth of human involvement in different religious philosophies.
Secondly, in my experience the Theory of Evolution in high school is taught as a theory with little evidence actually brought forward. Instead of looking at the legitimacy of the theory, the classes should focus on what the theory states and it's implications in how we understand functioning ecosystems. In this way, if you want to argue later about whether the Theory of Evolution is correct or not you will have a firm foundation of understanding about the subject you are arguing against. I'm sure you would tell an atheist to read the Bible before arguing against it, teaching evolution is no different.
I guess the question becomes, are you afraid of learning what the Theory of Evolution says? You don't have to accept it as the correct explanation for species diversity, mind you. You just have to learn what it states. What is wrong with teaching evolution in this manner?
PS: Scientists who have formed the current evolutionary theories did not set out to lie to people, it is the theory that best fit the data they collected. A lie would be to ignore the data and put forth a theory that is in direct contradiction to the evidence.
[This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 01-16-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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godsmac
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 106 (86584)
02-16-2004 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peter
11-11-2002 8:26 AM


Creation "science" is not really scientific in method, and therefore does not belong in a science classroom. Proponents of creationism bear false witness to both the Bible and science! Mainstream scientific explanations of evolution do not contradict with a firm and righteous belief in God or the Bible. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with teaching evolution in Sunday school. I think that would be a great thing!
For a good essay posted on the Web that deals with this topic, go to http://www.theistic-evolution.com
It has the best arguments against creationism and ID I have read in a long time, and from a devout Christian!

This message is a reply to:
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