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Author Topic:   Creationism in science classrooms (an argument for)
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 3 of 609 (481579)
09-11-2008 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
09-11-2008 5:37 PM


Okay now lets immediately get down to specifics of what should be taught.
Age 4-5, just teach about creativity of people, and pupils being creative themselves a lot
age 6-12 teach about creativity of people in comparison to creations in nature
age 12-16 teach formalized logic of creation the general principles, emphasis on practical skills such as tracing back origins to decisions, distinguishing free behaviour from forced behaviour. Explain subjectivity and objectivity, that science cant speak about what is evil or good about what is loving or hateful. Teach universal creationism, that the universe is created by a free act, and that the universe will end by a free act, final judgement.
So an aptitude test might involve such things like a student determining in how far a suspect acted of their own free will, or they were forced. And then determining for the creation of a specie how much freedom there is in an ecological system and how much it was forced. Determining when something becomes more likely to happen etc.

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 5 of 609 (481602)
09-11-2008 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
09-11-2008 5:37 PM


That would be a violation of personal integrity of creationists, to first set up their beliefs as magic, and then to bust their beliefs with natural selection. And every student will be left wondering what they are allowed to believe to pass the test. And then the sciencefans would also be mortified by such indoctrination. You should be more generous from your luxurious position of having mountains of evidence for evolution. So simply present the best possible evidence for creation you can think of. That way evolution would win out in comparison that the students can make themselves independently. But you would be hardpressed to find an evolutionist teacher to try to make the best possible case for creation.

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 17 of 609 (481691)
09-12-2008 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coyote
09-11-2008 9:29 PM


Re: Creation "science" in classrooms
I think the rule is that science may not teach about the value of things. So just stick to that rule, filter creationist knowledge with that rule, not teaching the parts which talks about the value of things, and then its generally not religious. So I think you can teach about the universe being created, and ending with judgement, because that does not say anything about the value.
And lets not forget that it was the social-darwinists who violated science the most by proving, and differentiating inherent worth of human beings. The worst possible education ever in Hitlerschools where they taught Darwin, where they posited values of the Germans as scientifically established. That is what is to be avoided in class. Saying you need to have objective evidence for everything as you do, just leads people to make up objective evidence for worth.

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 19 of 609 (481698)
09-12-2008 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Coyote
09-12-2008 1:20 AM


Re: On teaching creationism in science class
If you let science be free, then science will indeed be free, and people will not be free, but subjugated by science. Science is a real thing of itself, you seem to not comprehend this. So basically you are letting loose a beast which evidently hurts peoples feelings.
It is better to let students see that there are all kinds of evidence, some strong, some weak, but evidence never the less. Im sure that as a scientist not all evidence is up to standard. You have to use reasonability, leaps of faith too. Simply posit the ether for instance as the medium through which gravity flows in space. Now that turned out not correct, but was it was scientific enough to start with, evidence enough.

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
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Message 25 of 609 (481802)
09-12-2008 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Modulous
09-12-2008 1:07 PM


Re: On teaching creationism in science class
The problems science has with creationism, is the same problem it has with free will.
Anyway what specifically would be taught.

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 30 of 609 (481860)
09-13-2008 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by bluegenes
09-13-2008 4:32 AM


Re: More religious education, less indoctrination!
I think teaching students about a belief in creation as being comparable to political ideology, or dyslexia would make students hate science. I have firsthand experience of it now, reading what you all write im rather inclined to chuck the whole enterprise.

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 32 of 609 (481864)
09-13-2008 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by bluegenes
09-13-2008 7:28 AM


Re: More religious education, less indoctrination!
Oh ofcourse, calling my posts inane ramblings must be the unavoiable hurting peoples feelings, which seems to be part of the scientific method. Its quite obvious that you all are making science impopular.

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 47 of 609 (481961)
09-13-2008 5:23 PM


There is no mainstream hard scientific evidence for free will of people. There is no paper on it that definetely establishes its real. So you can teach creation as one of those things science doesnt have a handle on but which many people believe is real regardless. And then you can use the soft-science approach, using weaker standards of evidence.

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 81 of 609 (482263)
09-15-2008 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by dwise1
09-15-2008 12:59 PM


Re: Creation Science
Then instead of creationism why dont you review the more religionfriendly mainstream theories that posit freedom of some kind. Emergence, anticipation, etc. They use many of the same words that creationists use like creation, design, choice etc. That way you can teach creation and its science.

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 92 of 609 (482660)
09-17-2008 11:03 AM


You all seem to be divorced from any social context by the scientific method. You seem to have no idea about how your ideas will play out in a classroom, or society at large, because that doesn't figure in the scientific method. You all seem to have no consideration for the decision of the invidual, or parents, or society about what to teach. You all don't seem to acknowledge the integrity of a person to decide what does and what doesn't go in their mind. Therefore for England I suggest to light the 10 pound Darwin notes, and to burn down the schools with them.

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 94 of 609 (482713)
09-17-2008 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by bluescat48
09-17-2008 1:52 PM


Sure I would support the right of parentmembers of the blonde hair blue eyes appreciation society to teach their children as they see fit. Also to do this with shared money of society at large, on the basis of equal money per child. Since the rights too choose are guaranteed it would not promote nazism. Anything is better then being forced.

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 102 of 609 (482878)
09-18-2008 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by bluegenes
09-18-2008 11:35 AM


Re: Michael Reiss Resigns
Thats what liberals are good at, rationalizing towards an optimum. In this case the optimum is science education. But you forget that homo sapiens sapiens, have other purposes in life besides yer optimum. Now go making optimums for the environment, for driving safety, for drug use, for parental care, and generally tear people apart trying to fullfill the optimums. There is still no light in this thread, to fundamentally acknowledge students integrity of mind over the scientific method, which worthless method hasnt even established the free will of the students is real.

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