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Author Topic:   Ohio biology curriculum - petition
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 16 of 55 (87208)
02-18-2004 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by MrHambre
02-18-2004 7:08 AM


Re: Just in Case You Wanted to Know
I heard Njanjuk Tech lost its accrediation because during the halftime show, a deranged student ripped his shirt and pants off claiming he did not want to introduce such judemental terms as "top" and "bottom". His Darwin fish with an overlayed satin swaztika nipple protectors really inflamed the audience. However, the entire event did raise the plausibility of Stephen ben Yeshua farting today from 0.6 to 0.61.
Mamm "extinct farts "uthus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by MrHambre, posted 02-18-2004 7:08 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 17 of 55 (87210)
02-18-2004 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by MrHambre
02-17-2004 6:42 PM


quote:
Oh. Kay. Am I the only one who smells something mighty fishy in this tale?
Maybe Stevo is recounting a conversation he had with himself in the mirror.
After all, who would Steveo consider "the most authoritative philosopher of science I could find on the KU campus" but himself?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by MrHambre, posted 02-17-2004 6:42 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 18 of 55 (87211)
02-18-2004 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by MrHambre
02-17-2004 8:14 PM


fyi, Robert Pennock is at Michigan State University, not the U of M.
He's a Spartan, not a Wolverine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by MrHambre, posted 02-17-2004 8:14 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by MrHambre, posted 02-18-2004 10:07 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 19 of 55 (87215)
02-18-2004 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Stephen ben Yeshua
02-17-2004 7:10 PM


quote:
From His perspective, the whole discussion is important, because, as evolution is usually taught, He doesn't get any glory for His creativity.
From His perspective, the whole discussion is important, because, as gravity is usually taught, He doesn't get any glory for His creativity.
From His perspective, the whole discussion is important, because, as plate tectonicsis usually taught, He doesn't get any glory for His creativity.
From His perspective, the whole discussion is important, because, as thegerm theory of disease is usually taught, He doesn't get any glory for His creativity.
From His perspective, the whole discussion is important, because, as atomic theory is usually taught, He doesn't get any glory for His creativity.
From His perspective, the whole discussion is important, because, as the theory of a helocentric solar system is usually taught, He doesn't get any glory for His creativity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 02-17-2004 7:10 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 20 of 55 (87231)
02-18-2004 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by nator
02-18-2004 8:11 AM


Fraud Alert
Just another example of how evolution is based on deceit. Good work, Schraf.
regards,
Esteban "Framingham Man" Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by nator, posted 02-18-2004 8:11 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by hitchy, posted 02-18-2004 3:33 PM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 22 by nator, posted 02-18-2004 9:12 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
hitchy
Member (Idle past 5118 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 21 of 55 (87287)
02-18-2004 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by MrHambre
02-18-2004 10:07 AM


What does NSES say?
The National Science Education Standards derives its ideas from numerous sources, including scientists, teachers, administrators, community leaders, colleges, etc. These content standards put forth what kids should be learning prior to going to college. This is the minimum that students should know. I am definitely not a fan of the argument from authority, but it is hard to disregard the findings of such a wide-ranging and inclusive group of people.
What should kids know in life science? Cells (including Cell Theory), Biological evolution (there is even a special shout-out to teaching natural selection correctly), Molecular basis of heredity (Genetics), Molecules and energy pathways, Organism interactions (Classification and Ecology). These standards were adopted by Maryland and basically mimic what NSES says. I don't know about other states, but I am sure quite a few follow the same thing.
Oh, almost forgot, the NSES proscribes how to teach science also. Check this out--
quote:
ENCOURAGE AND MODEL THE SKILLS OF SCIENTIFIC INQUIRY, AS WELL AS THE CURIOSITY, OPENNESS TO NEW IDEAS, AND SKEPTICISM THAT CHARACTERIZE SCIENCE.
Now, why would "No Child Left Behind" or any other piece of legistlation feel the need to single out evolution in this same context if the idea was already put forth to cover all of science education? Hmm, can you say hidden agenda, boys and girls?
[This message has been edited by hitchy, 02-18-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 22 of 55 (87383)
02-18-2004 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by MrHambre
02-18-2004 10:07 AM


Re: Fraud Alert
Well, all of the frauds in evolution have always been uncovered by other evolutionists, and this is no exception.
...You'll never work in this town again, Hambre!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by MrHambre, posted 02-18-2004 10:07 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 23 of 55 (87674)
02-20-2004 7:35 AM


Sign Here, Evolutionists!
Just a bump to get people to sign the petition. Speak up, folks!
regards,
Esteban "Falsifier" Hambre

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Sylas, posted 02-20-2004 11:54 AM MrHambre has replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 24 of 55 (87717)
02-20-2004 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by MrHambre
02-20-2004 7:35 AM


Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve
I'm not in the USA, and so I'm going to let this one slide.
The rank idiocy involved in trying to lower the Ohio standards is disheartening; and my guess is that it won't go through. If it does, they'll be a laughing stock; but I don't think petitions of this kind achieve much when signed by people all over the world.
If petitions are given too much weight, then you have one petition from the IDiots, and one from the evilushunists; and the upshot is that people get the idea we need to teach both sides; and setting science standards by popular vote would be insane.
A really useful petition which directly comments upon the scientific standing of the "intelligent design" twits is the Project Steve petition. It reads as follows (and hence is very relevant in Ohio right now):
Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools.
So who can sign? You must have a PhD in biology, or geology, or paleontology, or some such related field.
And you must be named "Steve" (or Stephen, Steven, Esteban, Etienne, or Stephanie).
To see why this bizarre restriction, read their FAQ. There are now 424 Steves on the Steve-o-meter.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by MrHambre, posted 02-20-2004 7:35 AM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by MrHambre, posted 02-21-2004 8:55 AM Sylas has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 25 of 55 (87878)
02-21-2004 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Sylas
02-20-2004 11:54 AM


Etienne, Esteban, Stefano, etc.
Sylas,
I'm not claiming that the number of people who sign a petition makes their opinion the best one. However, the intelligent design creationists want educators and politicians to think that their view is one that is fast gaining acceptance in society, and I think it's important that we counter that illusion.
It's not just that a majority of scientists accept the theory of evolution, that hundreds of Steves have gone on record as opposing the IDC proposal, or that the majority of parents and citizens think IDC is an attempt to degrade science education in general. We oppose creationism on valid scientific and philosophical grounds.
regards,
Esteban "Un Steve Ms" Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Sylas, posted 02-20-2004 11:54 AM Sylas has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Sylas, posted 02-21-2004 3:52 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 26 of 55 (87899)
02-21-2004 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by MrHambre
02-21-2004 8:55 AM


Re: Etienne, Esteban, Stefano, etc.
MrHambre writes:
I'm not claiming that the number of people who sign a petition makes their opinion the best one. However, the intelligent design creationists want educators and politicians to think that their view is one that is fast gaining acceptance in society, and I think it's important that we counter that illusion.
It's not just that a majority of scientists accept the theory of evolution, that hundreds of Steves have gone on record as opposing the IDC proposal, or that the majority of parents and citizens think IDC is an attempt to degrade science education in general. We oppose creationism on valid scientific and philosophical grounds.
regards,
Esteban "Un Steve Ms" Hambre
I agree with all the above, except the point about it being an illusion that intelligent design is fast gaining acceptance in society.
Certainly intelligent design is does not at present have general acceptance; but they have made significant gains since the movement started. At present they have carved out a solid niche of acceptance, and a lot of people are sucked in, thinking that there is some kind of legitimate intellectual point being made by the ID folks. ID has nothing to offer; the "science" they offer is is a bad parody of reason.
The ID folks also have their petitions, and they also will get a lot of signatories. If the focus is placed on petitions, and support or criticism in the general public, then ID can easily show that there are two sides to the debate; and argue for both in the standards. The error is in thinking that this is a reasonable basis for deciding science standards. A serious and competent analysis of the scientific substance shows that one side is just hot air.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by MrHambre, posted 02-21-2004 8:55 AM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Coragyps, posted 02-21-2004 4:23 PM Sylas has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 27 of 55 (87903)
02-21-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Sylas
02-21-2004 3:52 PM


Re: Etienne, Esteban, Stefano, etc.
If the focus is placed on petitions, and support or criticism in the general public, then ID can easily show that there are two sides to the debate; and argue for both in the standards.
Hmmm. Accurate and unsettling point. And as quickly as that ID drivel puts me to sleep, I guess I'll have to drink more coffee and work on my debating/arguing skills. You're dead on the money, Sylas, that exposure is what the P. Johnsons need, not petitions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Sylas, posted 02-21-2004 3:52 PM Sylas has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 55 (88658)
02-25-2004 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by MrHambre
02-17-2004 8:14 PM


MrHambre,
I read up on Pennock, who mostly attacks ID, not defends evolution. As I have said often in these threads, the creationists (who misrepresent God) are definately worse than evolutionists (who misrepresent science). But, I e-mailed him, and will cheerfully submit the questions I raise here, about the absence amoung evolutionists of use, or even understanding, of strong inference, H-D methodology, and Bayesian interpretation to him or any other philosopher of science you wish to recommend.
Thanks for the tip. Might get some interesting data.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by MrHambre, posted 02-17-2004 8:14 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by MrHambre, posted 02-25-2004 6:02 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
MisterOpus1
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 55 (88663)
02-25-2004 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by MrHambre
02-18-2004 7:08 AM


Re: Just in Case You Wanted to Know
Hey, I take exception to my alma mater! I'm dyin' to know Stephen, who was this professor at my beloved school?
From what I knew of my science (and specifically, Biology) professors at KU, none had admitted to anything remotely of what you claim. But then again, I guess you're referring to a philosophy prof. I'm still dyin' to know who it was...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by MrHambre, posted 02-18-2004 7:08 AM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 02-25-2004 5:49 PM MisterOpus1 has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 55 (88666)
02-25-2004 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by MisterOpus1
02-25-2004 5:14 PM


Re: Just in Case You Wanted to Know
Mropus1,
Lesseee.... It was four years ago, he was an older semi-retired, gentleman. I just went to the office, asked who was their resident expert in the philosophy of science, was directed to him. I went in, he asked me what I wanted, and I said that I wanted him to lay his life down for the truth. I didn't plan to say that, it just came out. But it made his eyes twinkle, and he allowed as how that was a reasonable request. Then we talked. He had been a physicist, I think. I didn't write his name down, and my poor mind doesn't hold on to such info until I write it down. I'm sure you can find out who it was, though, with a little research.
Maybe he's retired now, and they have a new resident expert on the philosophy of science. If you research it, you can ask them what they think. Remember, strong inference, H-D methodology, Bayes theorem.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by MisterOpus1, posted 02-25-2004 5:14 PM MisterOpus1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by MisterOpus1, posted 02-25-2004 6:09 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
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