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Author Topic:   Ok. Why not. Let's teach ID in Science class!
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 61 of 87 (273524)
12-28-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by AdminNWR
12-28-2005 12:47 PM


Re: Number base systems are off-topic
grumpy.
so glad this isn't about gaining knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 87 (273532)
12-28-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by macaroniandcheese
12-28-2005 1:04 PM


Suspension warning
You have been told this is Off Topic yet you persist in carrying on side conversations and off topic remarks. There was absolutely no reason for that post.
Take any discussion to the appropriate thred.
Do not respond to this message.
If you continue your current behavior you will be suspended.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2005 1:04 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

    rogerw1
    Inactive Member


    Message 63 of 87 (273720)
    12-29-2005 12:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 50 by Nuggin
    12-28-2005 10:54 AM


    Re: Anthropology apology
    Thanks you answered my question. I understand what your saying .I believe anthropology as a science presents strong evidence in itself in continuing its research in evolution. I see the problem the other side has with this also, when references are made and compared in regard to religous beliefs it is a oneway street . Most of the students are young and the future of our evolution. this is an attack on their beliefs . You are the only on on the disscusion site that can come out and admitted "let me say that they really don't "need" to mention the book of Genesis when discussing evolution " when others come to this realization and just teach the science there is no more battlefield there nothing left to argue . both sides win . My fear is if the two subjects arent totally seperated we all lose. I rambled on more than I wanted to here . I respect you reply if there were more teachers with your view we would be better off thanks again

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 50 by Nuggin, posted 12-28-2005 10:54 AM Nuggin has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 64 by Nuggin, posted 12-29-2005 12:52 AM rogerw1 has not replied

    Nuggin
    Member (Idle past 2513 days)
    Posts: 2965
    From: Los Angeles, CA USA
    Joined: 08-09-2005


    Message 64 of 87 (273728)
    12-29-2005 12:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 63 by rogerw1
    12-29-2005 12:23 AM


    Re: Anthropology apology
    I wish more people thought like you.
    just teach the science there is no more battlefield there nothing left to argue . both sides win . My fear is if the two subjects arent totally seperated we all lose.
    The problem lies not in the topic, but in the politics.
    Evolution can very easily and successfully be taught with absolutely no reference to any religion. And so long as no one raises a religious question, there is frankly no need to go into the subject at all.
    However, the main thrust of a small but strong political movement is to strike all references to evolution from textbooks, and to teach, not just religious Creationism, but a very very specific form of religious Creationism (to the exclusion of all other religions).
    For a while scientists have tried to ignore them, figuring that the general population is smart enough to know real science from fanatical zealotry. Unfortunately, it's very easy to over estimate the intelligence of the American public.
    Ignoring this battlefront only allows it to fester. The fanatical religious extremists want their agenda no matter what. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away. As a result, increasingly over the last 50 years or so, scientists have been forced to take a much more proactive stance, trying to prevent the extremists from dismantling the entire education system.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by rogerw1, posted 12-29-2005 12:23 AM rogerw1 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 65 by Rrhain, posted 12-29-2005 6:14 AM Nuggin has not replied

    Rrhain
    Member
    Posts: 6351
    From: San Diego, CA, USA
    Joined: 05-03-2003


    Message 65 of 87 (273755)
    12-29-2005 6:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 64 by Nuggin
    12-29-2005 12:52 AM


    Re: Anthropology apology
    Nuggin writes:
    quote:
    Evolution can very easily and successfully be taught with absolutely no reference to any religion.
    And that's precisely the point: Evolution as it is taught in the public schools doesn't mention religion at all. That would be a violation of the Establishment Clause.
    Can anybody find me an example of a public school biology textbook that talks about religion and how it relates to evolutionary theory?

    Rrhain

    Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by Nuggin, posted 12-29-2005 12:52 AM Nuggin has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 67 by rogerw1, posted 12-29-2005 7:45 AM Rrhain has not replied

    Rrhain
    Member
    Posts: 6351
    From: San Diego, CA, USA
    Joined: 05-03-2003


    Message 66 of 87 (273756)
    12-29-2005 6:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 45 by rogerw1
    11-24-2005 7:18 AM


    rogerw1 writes:
    quote:
    almost every article makes a reference to the book of genesis .
    Um, what book was this? What school was this? What teacher was this? What educator seemed to think that teaching evolution required talking about any religious concept?
    quote:
    I got so tired of reference to the book of genesis .
    Could you give us an example? What textbook was this? What school was this? What teacher was this?
    quote:
    a far as i concerned evolution theory has may hole in it .
    But you are confusing a "hole" in the sense that there are things that we do not yet know with a "hole" in the sense that the entire theory is a fallacy.
    There is a difference between two mathematicians arguing over whether or not the six millionth digit of pi is a 2 and them arguing over whether or not pi is an integer. Do you see the difference?
    Yes, there are things about evolution that we do not yet understand. That's what makes evolution such a dynamic and vital field of research. If there were nothing left to learn, then there wouldn't be an research to carry out. But the fact that we don't know things, the fact that there are disagreements about details within evolutionary theory, none of that means that evolution is somehow weak and flimsy.
    quote:
    evolution still boils down to faith in what you believe .
    Incorrect. If you think science has anything to do with faith, then you don't understand what science is.
    quote:
    if there's no god there's no rules anymore .
    What an insulting thing to say. Are you claiming that atheists have no morals and would just as soon kill you as look at you? Just because there is no god doesn't mean there aren't any rules. It simply means that the rules don't come from god.
    quote:
    we have people going to court now say in god we trust on money violates his civil rights this is crazy
    Incorrect. It is the only valid option given our government's commitment to secular rule. Or do you not think the First Amendment is a good thing?

    Rrhain

    Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 45 by rogerw1, posted 11-24-2005 7:18 AM rogerw1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 68 by rogerw1, posted 12-29-2005 7:57 AM Rrhain has replied

    rogerw1
    Inactive Member


    Message 67 of 87 (273759)
    12-29-2005 7:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 65 by Rrhain
    12-29-2005 6:14 AM


    Re: Anthropology apology
    we were refering to my college class. just to let you know

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 65 by Rrhain, posted 12-29-2005 6:14 AM Rrhain has not replied

    rogerw1
    Inactive Member


    Message 68 of 87 (273762)
    12-29-2005 7:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 66 by Rrhain
    12-29-2005 6:36 AM


    Biological Anthropology: An Introductory Reader (Paperback)
    by Michael Alan Park, Michael Park
    Editorial Reviews
    Book Description
    This supplementary reader offers both historical and contemporary articles that demonstrate the significant contributions made by biological anthropology.
    With nearly a third of the selections focusing on living populations, the 42 articles cover the entire range of bioanthropological studies: evolution, nonhuman primates, human paleontology, and modern human groups.
    About the Author
    Michael Alan Park (Ph.D. Indiana, 1979) is a professor of anthropology at Central Connecticut State University, where he has been on the faculty since 1973, teaching courses in general anthropology, human evolution, biocultural diversity, human ecology, forensic anthropology, and the evolution of human behavior.
    His interests focus on the application of evolutionary theory to the story of human evolution and on the quality of science education and the public perception and understanding of scientific matters.
    He is the author or co-author of four current texts in anthropology as well as technical and popular articles

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 66 by Rrhain, posted 12-29-2005 6:36 AM Rrhain has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 72 by Nuggin, posted 12-29-2005 10:13 AM rogerw1 has replied
     Message 75 by Rrhain, posted 12-29-2005 9:12 PM rogerw1 has replied

    nator
    Member (Idle past 2190 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 69 of 87 (273773)
    12-29-2005 8:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 46 by rogerw1
    11-24-2005 7:30 AM


    Re: What is biology class for?
    quote:
    i just took anthropology
    Good for you.
    quote:
    your statment is dead on correct screwed up
    OK, which is it?
    Is my statement "dead on", "correct", or "screwed up"?
    quote:
    Scientist do care about that they care about there grant money .
    This is the statement you are responding to in
    message #38
    :
    Uh, I was taught critical thinking in a classroom context.
    The course title was "The Nature of Scientific Inquiry."
    I am not sure what your comment had to do with this comment. Please explain.
    quote:
    no controversy no grant money.
    Well, no. I would correct the above to say, "no unanswered scientific question with a good chance of yielding fruitful results", no grant money.
    quote:
    same aspect applies to the other side.
    Creationists are getting grant money to perform scientific research? Where? Who? When?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by rogerw1, posted 11-24-2005 7:30 AM rogerw1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 77 by rogerw1, posted 12-30-2005 5:08 AM nator has replied

    nator
    Member (Idle past 2190 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 70 of 87 (273774)
    12-29-2005 8:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by Carico
    12-28-2005 10:00 AM


    Re: but teach it with all its prolems, errors and miss-representations.
    quote:
    Of course creationism should be taught in the classroom. People who are interested in what's true or false want to hear any theory. But those who are afraid of certain theories call the truth a "religion". Therefore classrom children can never hear the truth and make up their own minds. teaching only one theory about the creation of the world is called brainwashing, especially when no one was around to document this theory.
    I agree.
    Which creation stories should we teach?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by Carico, posted 12-28-2005 10:00 AM Carico has not replied

    nator
    Member (Idle past 2190 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 71 of 87 (273775)
    12-29-2005 8:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 51 by macaroniandcheese
    12-28-2005 11:02 AM


    Re: Thank you all...
    quote:
    the problem is that in the american school system, from first grade we learn the same thing every year. we never have to actually learn it because we'll just review it next year.
    i was taking an honors english class senior year of high school and we had to go over sentence structure and commas because these tards were too stupid to figure it out.
    Did they have to go over capitalising the first words of sentences, too?
    Seriously, that shows the enormous range of quality of US public high schools. My honor's English class did nothing of the sort, and I don't remember being taught that in class past 6th grade.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 51 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2005 11:02 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 73 by Nuggin, posted 12-29-2005 10:16 AM nator has replied

    Nuggin
    Member (Idle past 2513 days)
    Posts: 2965
    From: Los Angeles, CA USA
    Joined: 08-09-2005


    Message 72 of 87 (273801)
    12-29-2005 10:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 68 by rogerw1
    12-29-2005 7:57 AM


    Central?
    Before I go off on this guy...
    You weren't actually at Central Conn. State were you?
    His interests focus on the application of evolutionary theory to the story of human evolution and on the quality of science education and the public perception and understanding of scientific matters.
    Also, this is key "public perception and understanding of scientific matters". That's why he mentions Creationism so much.
    Although, I think your original point is still very valid - the professor who was selecting curriculum should either have set up a different outline or picked a book that didn't conflict with the outline he had choosen.
    Just out of curriosity, when we the book published?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by rogerw1, posted 12-29-2005 7:57 AM rogerw1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 76 by rogerw1, posted 12-30-2005 5:03 AM Nuggin has replied

    Nuggin
    Member (Idle past 2513 days)
    Posts: 2965
    From: Los Angeles, CA USA
    Joined: 08-09-2005


    Message 73 of 87 (273802)
    12-29-2005 10:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 71 by nator
    12-29-2005 8:52 AM


    How Old is Schrafinator?
    Seriously, that shows the enormous range of quality of US public high schools. My honor's English class did nothing of the sort, and I don't remember being taught that in class past 6th grade.
    Which raises an interesting pair of questions -
    How old are you and where did you go to school?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 71 by nator, posted 12-29-2005 8:52 AM nator has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 74 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-29-2005 11:15 AM Nuggin has not replied
     Message 79 by nator, posted 12-30-2005 8:10 AM Nuggin has not replied

    macaroniandcheese 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3948 days)
    Posts: 4258
    Joined: 05-24-2004


    Message 74 of 87 (273811)
    12-29-2005 11:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 73 by Nuggin
    12-29-2005 10:16 AM


    Re: How Old is Schrafinator?
    actually. it is a very good question. it might demonstrate the particular problem. the deterioration of the quality of schools and the range that she so well picked up on.
    i'm 22 (i think) and i graduated in florida. our math was also weak and i so could have done algebra before 8th grade. but no one would let me.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 73 by Nuggin, posted 12-29-2005 10:16 AM Nuggin has not replied

    Rrhain
    Member
    Posts: 6351
    From: San Diego, CA, USA
    Joined: 05-03-2003


    Message 75 of 87 (273996)
    12-29-2005 9:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 68 by rogerw1
    12-29-2005 7:57 AM


    rogerw1, thanks for the text reference, but you didn't give any specific passages. The description that you culled from Amazon doesn't mention anything about creationism in general or Genesis in specific. Amazon has yet to put up any text from the book for me to search inside it.
    I went to McGraw-Hill Ryerson and found the following table of contents:
    PART I. BEING A BIOLOGICAL ANTHROPOLOGIST
    1. Donald Johanson and Maitland Edey, "Finding Lucy," from Lucy: The Beginnings of Humankind, 1980
    2. Agustín Fuentes, "Monkey Business in Bali: Field Work and Teaching Among the Temple Macaques"
    3. *Michael Alan Park. "The Homegoing," from Lessons from the Past: An Introductory Reader in Archaeology, 1999.
    4. Katherine A. Dettwyler, "Bad Breath, Gangrene, and God's Angels," from Dancing Skeletons: Life and Death in West Africa, 1994
    PART II. THE NATURE OF SCIENCE
    5. Stephen Jay Gould, "Sex, Drugs, Disasters, and the Extinction of Dinosaurs," from The Flamingo's Smile, 1985
    *6. Kenneth L. Feder, "Piltdown, Paradigms, and the Paranormal." from Skeptical Inquirer, 1990
    7. John A. Moore, "Science as a Way of Knowing," from Science as a Way of Knowing: The Foundations of Modern Biology, 1993
    PART III. THE EVOLUTION OF EVOLUTION
    8. Jean Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet de Lamarck, "The Inheritance of Acquired Characteristics," from Philosophie zoologique, 1809
    9. Charles R. Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace, "Natural Selection," from "The Linnean Society Papers," 1859
    10. Johann Gregor Mendel, "The Laws of Inheritance," from "Experiments in Plant Hybridization," 1866
    11. Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution As Fact and Theory," from Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes, 1983
    12. Robert S. Root-Bernstein, "Darwin's Rib," from Discover, 1995
    PART IV. THE PROCESS OF EVOLUTION
    13. Jared Diamond, "Curse and Blessing of the Ghetto," from Discover, 1991
    14. Josie Glausiusz, "Unfortunate Drift," from Discover, 1995
    15. Stephen Jay Gould, "What Is a Species?," from Discover, 1992
    PART V. THE PRIMATES AND PRIMATE BEHAVIOR
    16. Jonathan Marks, "98% Alike? (What Our Similarity to Apes Tells Us About Our Understanding of Genetics) from The Chronicle of Higher Education, 2000
    17. Karen B. Strier, "Menu for a Monkey," from Natural History, 1993
    18. *Craig Stanford, "Close Encounters" from Natural History, 2003
    19. Gretchen Vogel, "Chimps in the Wild Show Stirrings of Culture," from Science, December, 2002, pp. 74-83
    20. Robert W. Sussman, "Exploring Our Basic Human Nature: Are Humans Inherently Violent?" from AnthroNotes, 1997
    PART VI. HOMINID EVOLUTION
    21. Russell L. Ciochon, "The Ape That Was," from Natural History, 1991
    22. *William R. Leonard, "Food for thought," from Scientific American, December, 2002
    23. Ann Gibbons, "The Riddle of Coexistence," from Science,2001
    24. Matt Cartmill, "The Gift of Gab," from Discover, 1998
    PART VII. THE BIOANTHROPOLOGY OF MODERN HUMAN POPULATIONS
    25. Donald K. Grayson, "Differential Mortality and the Donner Party Disaster," from Evolutionary Anthropology, 1993
    26. *Nina G. Jablonski and George Chaplin, "Skin deep," from Scientific American, October, 2002
    27. George J. Armelagos, Kathleen C. Barnes, and James Lin, "Disease in Human Evolution: The Re-Emergence of Infectious Disease in the Third Epidemolgoical Transition," from AnthroNotes,1996
    PART VIII: HUMAN BIODIVERSITY
    28. Anne Fausto-Sterling, "The Five Sexes, Revisted" fromThe Sciences, 2000
    29. Carolus Linnaeus, "An Early Racial Taxonomy from "Systema naturae" (10th ed, 1758)
    30. Jonathan Marks, "Science and Race" from American Behavioral Scientist,1996
    31. Jared Diamond, "Who Are the Jews?" from Natural History, 1993
    32. Matt Carmill, "The Third Man," from Discover,1997
    PART IX: BIOANTHROPOLOGY AND THE HUMAN GENOME
    33. *Svante Pbo, "The Mosiaic That Is Our Genome" from Nature, 2003
    34. Elizabeth Pennisi, "Tracking the Sexes by Their Genes" from Science, 2001
    PART X. BIOLOGICAL ANTHROPOLOGY: APPLIED AND CONSIDERED
    35. Randolph M. Nesse and George C. Williams, "Evolution and the Origins of Disease" from Scientific American, 1998
    36. Jerome C. Rose and Thomas J. Green, "NAGPRA and the Future of Skeletal Research," from General Anthropology, 1997
    37. *James H. Dickson, Klaus Oeggl, and Linda L. Handley, "The Iceman Reconsidered", from Scientific American, 2003
    38. *Karen R. Rosenberg and Wenda R. Trevathan, "The Evolution of Human Birth," from Scientific American, 2001
    39. Douglas W. Owsley, Davor Strinovic, Mario Slaus, Dana D. Kollmann, and Malcom L. Richardson, "Recovery and Identification of Civilan Victims of War in Croatia," from Cultural Resource Management, 1996
    40. *P.V. Tobias, "Saartje Baartman: Her Life, Her Times, Her Remains, and the Negotiations for Their Repatriation from France to South Africa," from South African Journal of Science, 2002
    41. Robin A. Weiss and Richard W. Wrangham, "From Pan to Pandemic," from Nature, 1999
    42. *Gretchen Vogel, "Can Great Apes Be Saved From Ebola?" from Science, June 2003
    The book appears to be a collection of articles. One of them happens to be "Evolution as Fact and Theory" by Gould from Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes, which I happen to have a copy of. The article does give creationism a hard time, but it doesn't mention anything about Genesis. It does, however, talk about an extremely important area of science: Just what is a theory, what is a fact, and why is evolution both a theory and a fact? Creationism simply isn't scientific. This doesn't mean there is no god.
    Are you saying that a course in biological evolution shouldn't talk about why evolution is a fact? A case might be made about how one goes about talking about how evolution is a fact, but should we not mention the truth of the matter that evolution is, indeed, a fact?

    Rrhain

    Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by rogerw1, posted 12-29-2005 7:57 AM rogerw1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 78 by rogerw1, posted 12-30-2005 5:14 AM Rrhain has not replied
     Message 82 by rogerw1, posted 12-30-2005 9:00 AM Rrhain has replied

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