Education

One of the things I consistently come across when I debate evolution with creationists is their consistent lack of knowledge in science. I'm not saying they lack higher education, but their lack of knowledge in science seems evident by the arguments they give against evolution.Do people see a lack of knowledge in science as a possible cause for their inability to understand what evolution truly is?Are their any papers or statistics on the variation of science education among evolutionists vs. creationists?Do you think we would be having these problems with evolution and creationism if education in science were stronger?This message has been edited by Ned_Flanders, 12-10-2005 05:35 PMThis message has been edited by Ned_Flanders, 12-10-2005 05:36 PM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

As a creationist, I see science as a pursuit for understanding of what is on this observable earth. For me, Science comes after Faith in God. I am in advanced bio, chemistry, and will take physics, in H.S. I believe that I understand the mechanics of evolution, but they simply don't matter to me as much as the truth I have began to believe in and understand. Evolution promotes a life without purpose for humanity, see my other thread if you'd like.EvC Forum: Evolution and Specialness of Humanity

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these walls are paper thin
and everyone hears every little sound.

This is a special issue with a lot on
"Evolution and the ID Wars" -- I might get around to putting more in here from there.There is the results of a Harris Poll:one question was on
Human Development from Earlier Species
All Adults (n=1000) Yes = 38% No= 54%
H.S or less (n=407) Yes = 32% No= 59%
Some College(n=339) Yes = 35% No= 56%
College grad(n=157) Yes = 46% No= 46%
Post Grad (n=75 ) Yes = 60% No= 33%This is U.S adults in June 05.I think I'd be pleased to put Canadians up against this and I'm appalled at all the numbers. There is an obvious trend though.

Prophex,Sorry if I mis-understood what you said in your post, but it appears to me that you understand and realize that evidence goes toward evolution and not creationism. But you choose to believe in creationism because you think there is a specific purpose for you, and that you not some random creation.That takes my post in a somewhat different direction. But do you think a lack of education in science is a big result of people choosing creationism over evolution? I'm talking about looking at the evidence for both sides and making a decision.
Do you think there are many creationists who have advanced education in science such as yourself?

Yes there obviously is a trend.It would definitely be interesting to see that poll broken down into more categories. Such as degree earned, classes taken etc...This message has been edited by Ned_Flanders, 12-10-2005 08:25 PM

Hi, Ned, and welcome. Explore some of the threads here and you won`t only find abysmal knowledge about evolution and science, but about Biblical history, translations, even contradictions. While we have knowledgeable Christians, the majority seem to been brain-washed, quoting verbatim from long-refuted books and websites, using terminology not acceptable to science, and flourishing some comforting 'fact' as gospel till we point out contrary evidence that they never considered. Who knows where the blame lies? Is it a recent phenomenon due to dumbing down by media? Is it personal laziness to have their 'ears tickled'? Is it the pressure of existence in the modern-day world, where you grab the first cab off the rank and cling to it regardless? Maybe one`s personal standard of examining all the evidence before judging is genetic. Or is it instilled by a damn good teacher in our early years?

Be afraid - be very afraidIf those numbers are anything like accurate (and every poll from the US I've seen reported over here suggests they are) it's way beyond appalling. It's terrifying.The idea that the electorate of the country with far and away the most powerful conventional and nuclear forces in the world thinks humans aren't developed from an earlier species gives me the heebie-jeebies.I never batted an eyelid about living with the threat of 'Mutually Assured Destruction' between the US and USSR in the '70s and '80s (too young to care back in the '60s ) but this actually frightens me.I don't think I'm stretching too far in assuming 'not developed from an earlier species' goes along by and large with the belief 'created ~6000 years ago like it says in the Bible'.If people aren't picking up the mental skills to realise this isn't true (and I think it is mental skills rather than actual technical knowledge that are lacking) they can be suckered into thinking or doing anything. Mind you, I sometimes thinks that's actually what our business leaders want these days - a population that thinks 'these trainers must be worth $100 - Michael Jordan wears them'. How else are we going to keep the economy growing except by getting people to buy stuff they don't need at prices that bear no relation to the intrinsic value of the item and the materials and processes used in making it?I realise I'm showing my age with both the MJ reference and the price of the trainers

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I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

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But do you think a lack of education in science is a big result of people choosing creationism over evolution?

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The statistics show that college graduates are more apt to believe in evolution, this may be from the constant barrage of majority opinion, evidence, and data while in school. When you drop out, or go on to work, you don't have to fight for your beliefs against anyone, but in college, those few that arrive with beliefs against evolution are finally molded by the majority of people there, it's rather disturbing really. Because the evidence is really part of a system that will be gone anyway, when you die, when this world is gone.

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Do you think there are many creationists who have advanced education in science such as yourself?

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No, creationists would not want to waste their lives on such a worthless pursuit. They would be ready to spend time in theology programs, to study God, or other particular studies such as philosophy. The mindsets are very different for these two specific groups of people. Evolutionists are usually well versed in science, and mathematics, both studies dedicated to the measurable world, whereas, creationists might not even consider college, or advanced education. It becomes deeply personal, people are different, but I'm really not sure on why there is a trend between education and people of the ID philosophy. Each is probably a different story. I see what you mean though, this doesn't look too good for those who would want a community of intellectuals for their argument.

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these walls are paper thin
and everyone hears every little sound.

Nighttrain,I've heard some ridiculous things just like you have. The most recent that made me laugh was someone comparing that snakes being the only terrestrial animal without legs proving the existence of the devil, and of course God. Even when he was enlightened to the existence of legless lizards he then tried to lump them together as the same thing. Ridiculous....I went to parochial school for 12 years, had religion class every day of school. I even took some religious studies courses as an undergrad. Creationists are shocked when I tell them that because I believe in evolution.Unfortunately the person who performs their service whether it is a priest, deacon or whatever is looked upon as the authority figure for everything. If he says so it must be true... Never mind what the scientists say, Deacon Bob says their lying.Even if some people further their education in science many go into it with their mind already made up.

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The statistics show that college graduates are more apt to believe in evolution, this may be from the constant barrage of majority opinion, evidence, and data while in school. When you drop out, or go on to work, you don't have to fight for your beliefs against anyone, but in college, those few that arrive with beliefs against evolution are finally molded by the majority of people there, it's rather disturbing really. Because the evidence is really part of a system that will be gone anyway, when you die, when this world is gone.

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I'm not sure if many people would switch sides while in college. From my experience I see many already have their mind made up by the time they are in college. Many evolutionists are very strong headstrong toward their belief. I've seen this from my religious education and from where I go to school. I have seen high school students on my campus for Bible school during the summer wearing shirts that say "Darwin Lied." I just don't see them getting molded to a pro-evolution view.

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No, creationists would not want to waste their lives on such a worthless pursuit. They would be ready to spend time in theology programs, to study God, or other particular studies such as philosophy. The mindsets are very different for these two specific groups of people. Evolutionists are usually well versed in science, and mathematics, both studies dedicated to the measurable world, whereas, creationists might not even consider college, or advanced education. It becomes deeply personal, people are different, but I'm really not sure on why there is a trend between education and people of the ID philosophy. Each is probably a different story. I see what you mean though, this doesn't look too good for those who would want a community of intellectuals for their argument.

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I know it is not likely everyone will be well educated to both sides. But from my perspective its ridiculous to see people try to refute evolution using science when they really don't know what they are talking about.Your right, it doesn't look good for their argument. What seems to benefit them is that most with their beliefs are on the same level as them when it comes to education in science.

I'm tempted to believe that thinking itself is an entirely different process for those of the creationist bent. Once an idea is in their heads, it takes root and no amount of evidence or logic can remove it. No testing is necessary. "The Truth" is the truth.And the same principle applies to their religious thinking. Whether it's in the Bible or not, it's "the Truth" and nothing will ever convince them otherwise. The mind snaps shut like a bear trap. (I'm not sure how anything gets in there in the first place. )

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

i don't think it's that simple. (or perhaps it's more simple than that.) most people lack basic scientific knowledge, immaterial of their ideological bent. it just so happens that creationists tend to display their ignorance more often than those who aren't concerned.

Part of the problem is how poll questions are written and framed.If people are asked "Did humans descend, like all life on Earth, from a common ancestor", for example, they will likely feel a twinge to their religiously-based ego, which combined with their ignorance of science and Biology, and refuse to believe it.However, if the poll were to ask questions such as:"Do you accept that DNA tests are able to determine heredity between people.""Do you believe that using animals in medical and drug testing and research is useful to humans."...in order to lead people to the same logical conclusion that those who have been educated in science have reached 150 years ago, then I think we would return a better, less scary number.

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The statistics show that college graduates are more apt to believe in evolution, this may be from the constant barrage of majority opinion, evidence, and data while in school. When you drop out, or go on to work, you don't have to fight for your beliefs against anyone, but in college, those few that arrive with beliefs against evolution are finally molded by the majority of people there, it's rather disturbing really. Because the evidence is really part of a system that will be gone anyway, when you die, when this world is gone.

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The statistics show that college graduates are more apt to believe in the Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System, this may be from the constant barrage of majority opinion, evidence, and data while in school. When you drop out, or go on to work, you don't have to fight for your beliefs against anyone, but in college, those few that arrive with beliefs against The Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System are finally molded by the majority of people there, it's rather disturbing really. Because the evidence is really part of a system that will be gone anyway, when you die, when this world is gone.Yeah, it really is stupid that we waste any time trying to use scienct to cure disease or anything.The time could be much better spent studying the Bible and praising God.HEY!!We should follow the lead of the radical Islamic countries that don't allow their schools to teach any modern science, history, geography, or anything at all other than a literal interpretation the Koran. They have done away with all of that meaningless science, as you suggest we all should.I think you would find some kindred souls in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, Chris.