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Author Topic:   Confused
Falkram
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 51 (76503)
01-04-2004 3:28 PM


hello all. I'm new to the forums. So, just for a little background info: i'm 17, i'm a senior at OB high school, and i attend my lutheran church on a regular basis...
so, now that we've gotten past that part, onto the point of this post. My faith, as of late, has come into question. I can't help but question creation and embrace evolution, it only makes logical sense to me, my only problem with that is that most of the creation proponents make me out to be a heathen. At that point i'm rather pissed off.
This was kind of sparked today in sunday school class (yes, i still go) when we watched a speech given by Kent Hovind on the creation of the universe. Now, after researching this a bit on the internet, i've come to understand that abiogenisis and evolution theory are 2 very different things. I understand that, but i post on this section because i felt that you might be able to help me out.
I found Mr. Hovind's arguments for creation are a bit out of there. Of course he brings into question human behaviour if there is no sin, which is of course superfluous to the actual argument, and only meant to sway the easy prey. I of course abhor this kind of speech, because it is meant to sway people, it isn't meant to lay out facts, it is as he himself says of evolution "a little bit of truth, with a lot of deception" (paraphrase, of course).
Are the majority of creationist arguments like this? nothing more than deceit laid within a shred of truth? I question because I wonder about the validity of the arugments of Hovind and his ilk.
Secondly i wonder why it is that a lack of proof on the creation side is acceptable while reams of it is of course necessary to even begin an argument pro evolution.
I guess that's it, thanks for even taking a look at this post...

And the ignorant shall fall to the squirrels - Chip 2:54

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-04-2004 3:42 PM Falkram has not replied
 Message 3 by sidelined, posted 01-04-2004 4:14 PM Falkram has not replied
 Message 4 by Chiroptera, posted 01-04-2004 4:15 PM Falkram has not replied
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 01-04-2004 7:23 PM Falkram has not replied
 Message 8 by :æ:, posted 01-05-2004 11:52 AM Falkram has not replied
 Message 11 by Rei, posted 01-05-2004 1:00 PM Falkram has not replied
 Message 14 by Prozacman, posted 01-05-2004 3:02 PM Falkram has not replied
 Message 34 by truthlover, posted 01-07-2004 5:12 PM Falkram has not replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 51 (76504)
01-04-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Falkram
01-04-2004 3:28 PM


Welcome to EvC, Falkram. You won't find much support for Hovind and his kind around here.
My faith, as of late, has come into question. I can't help but question creation and embrace evolution, it only makes logical sense to me, my only problem with that is that most of the creation proponents make me out to be a heathen. At that point i'm rather pissed off.
Don't let your faith rest on Hovind and other creationist misinformation. Many, if not most, faithful Christians are perfectly capable of incorporating an understanding of the TOE with their religious beliefs.
Please read through the posts here and ask questions.

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 3 of 51 (76508)
01-04-2004 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Falkram
01-04-2004 3:28 PM


Falkram
May I offer a website to check out? I find it to be fairly comprehensive and enlighteneing. Enjoy!
http://www.origins.tv/darwin/eyes.htm

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 51 (76509)
01-04-2004 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Falkram
01-04-2004 3:28 PM


Hovind is a little extreme, but, yes, most if not all creationist arguments are based on a fundamental lack of understanding of the facts and/or of the nature of science.
As far as your last quesstion, Falkram, it would seem that most creationists believe that Genesis is the default, that is, if evolution can be shown to be false then creationism is automatically shown to be true.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 51 (76531)
01-04-2004 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Falkram
01-04-2004 3:28 PM


Hovind makes some sound and imo, irrefutable points, so don't throw out the baby with the bathwater on what you've learned from him.
It doesn't sound much like you're very confused. It sounds like you've got your mind all made up and here to promote what's on your mind. Maybe it would be good to join a topic or do a topic that relates to specific problematic ideas of Hovind.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 6 of 51 (76532)
01-04-2004 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
01-04-2004 7:23 PM


Points
Hovind makes some sound and imo, irrefutable points, so don't throw out the baby with the bathwater on what you've learned from him.
Oh really!!! ? Care to start some threads on them? If they are such good points you can defend them, I presume.

Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 7 of 51 (76588)
01-05-2004 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by NosyNed
01-04-2004 7:38 PM


Re: Points
Don't hold your breath, Ned.

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:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7185 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 8 of 51 (76615)
01-05-2004 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Falkram
01-04-2004 3:28 PM


Hi there, Falkram.
I want to echo AdminAsgara's comments about taking care not to let your entire faith rest on the issue of accepting or rejecting an ber-literal interpretation of Genesis. I myself am not a Christian, so I can't really comment too much on HOW you should interpret it, but I do know that there are plenty (maybe even a majority) of Christians out there that are able to fit evolution quite comfortably into their theology.
It's unfortunate that ardent creationists are so forceful in their insistance that rejecting their interpretation renders your beliefs heretical, and I'm sure that plenty of Christians have left the fold because they were presented with that false dilemma and Genesis lost. I don't think they (the YEC's) realize that their insistance on the dilemma has probably contributed significantly to many individual's loss of faith.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Dr Jack, posted 01-05-2004 11:56 AM :æ: has replied
 Message 15 by grace2u, posted 01-05-2004 3:27 PM :æ: has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 9 of 51 (76616)
01-05-2004 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by :æ:
01-05-2004 11:52 AM


It seems to me that biblical literalists deny the most (to me, as an Atheist) striking aspect of Christianity - the idea of a personal relationship with Jesus. Why exactly do you need to accept a large, badly-written work to get your answers when you can talk to God?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7185 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 10 of 51 (76619)
01-05-2004 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Jack
01-05-2004 11:56 AM


I agree, and there's a whole line of discussion about the possibility that holding to extreme biblical inerrancy and literalism is a form of idolatry. I suspect that (in general) Christians that cling so tightly to their Good Book are the ones with the weakest faith in their personal relationship with God.

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Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 11 of 51 (76630)
01-05-2004 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Falkram
01-04-2004 3:28 PM


Just so you know, theistic evolutionists (i.e., evolution occured, but God has guided the process and/or created the first life) far outnumber creationists worldwide, and in America (one of the few industrialized nations with a sizable number of creationists at all), are almost as common. Furthermore, while when you look at the rates of different views on origins in the scientific community, the rate of creationists sharply drops off - but theistic evolutionists are still common.
It is unfortunate that many creationists have decided that they're the only "true christians".

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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MarkAustin
Member (Idle past 3815 days)
Posts: 122
From: London., UK
Joined: 05-23-2003


Message 12 of 51 (76633)
01-05-2004 1:05 PM


While an atheist, and thus not fully qualified to talk on the issue of the Church and evolution, I may perhaps point out that the problem arises in large part because of a belief by a minority of Christians of Bible innerancy (at least for the "historical" part of the Bible, in particular Genesis).
It is worth pointing out that this is both a minority view, and a very recent one at that, largely confined to the USA and originating in the early 20th Century (although it was held briefly by some minority sects in the early days of the Reformation). Most Christian sects have no problem with parts of the Bible being allegorical in nature - telling instructive stories, not true accounts.
Indeed, as an aside I remember reading in a history of the Reformation that one of the reasons the Catholic Church opposed the translation of the Bible into the vernacular was that, without guidance from a priest, many people would not be able to tell apart those parts which were literal and those that were allegorical in nature.
Evolution is only automatically opposed to the literal and inerrant interpretation of the Bible. Many Christians seem perfectly able to reconcile evolution and their faith.

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 13 of 51 (76640)
01-05-2004 1:32 PM


Topic title modification?
This is looking to be a good topic, but one in need of a better title.
I don't offhand have a better title (or modified title). Suggestions?
Adminnemooseus

  
Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 51 (76661)
01-05-2004 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Falkram
01-04-2004 3:28 PM


If your not going to a private religious school, then I have a suggestion I hope you will follow. It is a very smart person who can hold two seemingly opposed ideas in his mind at the same time and eventually come to an understanding about how to reconcile them. I hope you are like that. Here's my suggestion, take it or leave it: Keep your faith in God, and keep studying the sciences, then go to Sunday-school and compare & contrast what you have learned from science with what Mr. Hovind & others are saying, but make sure you keep it to yourself so you don't get heathenized. If this fails, change churches!
God & evolution are not incompatible.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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grace2u
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 51 (76663)
01-05-2004 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by :æ:
01-05-2004 11:52 AM


:ae:,
As much as I have disagreed with your positions I do find your comments here to be quite good. Congrats.
Falkram,
I personally am a Christian and have labored repeatedly on this sight various arguments regarding the validity of Christianity. I find the most convincing to be more philisophical in nature since ultimately, if it can be concluded that God exists and He is who He says He is, then who is to say that He didn't set up the entire universe the way it is so that His creation would simply trust Him and live by faith.
Furthermore, given our ability to usually get the facts wrongs, why should we worship our own rational thought over a supposed perfect in quality/nature God, that many would agree logic simply demands must exist.
My own faith ultimately comes from repeated spiritual experiences I have had and is also confirmed through various theological and philisophical discussions I have had. In searching for ways to explain this truth, I(and many theists on this site) have encountered adequate amounts of evidence that could allow a rational person to have a reason to believe. The sad reality however, is that ultimately no amount of evidence will ever be sufficient for many.
All theists have their own reasons to believe, while ultimatley the experience of God is sufficient evidence, that is imagine your life without Him, having known Him now. Having understood the depth of love that Christ has for you and your desperate need for Him, why deny this simply because you perceive Hovinds arguemts to be lacking?
Perhaps you have created any belief you might have for God out of thin air? Perhaps not. What evidence is there for both cases? Examine what He has done for you. What His teachings represent, the theology and infinite Wisdom that He exhibits and reflects.
Ultimately, I am a Christian, only because of Gods grace. While I beleive many philisophical and some scientific arguments to be valid, my faith does not rest on this, rather it rests on who I know God to be. He supports this position in that He has demsonstrated His compassion for me by giving me morals, providing a world that behaves rationaly, through the wonder and glory of His creation(the world), through the old and new testaments(can you think of any more amazing book?), through giving me a wife and two beatiful kids, a house, food, protection and finaly salvation. I have lived life on the other side, and know what the world has to offer. Selfishness, pride, hurt and ultimately a lonely death. For those that have met Christ, seen His light, the darkness is exceedingly dark and destructive. It ultimately will consume man to the point that he will be robbed of the beauty and glory Christ intended man to have.
This is easily seen by examining the ultimate end of a life without Christ. Uncertainty and death are all that remain. In my opinion, this is a cold view of the world, is self destructive and is even irrational. While they that posses this outlook many times appear to have reached a true knowledge and have a solid grasp on reality, upon closer inspection, it becomes quite apparent that their worldview can not explain the observed realities this world exhibits(truth,morality, evil, good, love,justice, etc). So why leave the light and enter darkness simply because you disagree with Hovind or find some at your church to be sheep and extremely oversimplified? Remeber both sides of the argument have their own share of sheep and oversimplified believers. Remeber what Christianity is and that it rests upon Christ, not the teachings of man. Understand who Christ is or perhaps more importatntly, who you are to Him and rest in His mercy, grace and true love for you.
Understand that to our finite minds, there is nothing more beautiful in the cosmos than the grace of Christ. Also, note that our belief does not hinge upon the fact that we want to believe. While it is true that the Christian theology in and of itself is a beautiful concept(loving father in heaven, etc), it is also evidenced in hundereds of different arguments within both formal academic philosophy and testimonials by millions of beleivers.
Take care and regards,
"Christe eleison"

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Replies to this message:
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