The Foundations of the Debate

What does anything in your message have to do with Message 96?It looks like the typical response from Biblical Creationists, instead of answering the point raised, change the subject.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Uh, no.Inner city minorities were, and are, being discriminated against because of their skin color, something they have no control over. IF creationist christians are being "discriminated against" in the manner you describe, it's because they lack knowledge, by their own choice, that others have. Not nearly the same thing.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

Basically I think you are right! But would you say this is only a matter of their “bible interpretation” or do you think there is something deeper more basic about their stanza?I myself would think that their conception of reality is such that they can only deal with absolutes and that their biblical fundamentalism and thus their literal creation fundamentalism are just expressions of this more basic approach to life.

In this I think Paul the apostle preceded professor Dawkins in solving the age old mathematical question of the square root of evil
But I don’t think the answer is that simple. Sure many scams like Ken Ham are there for the money, the same thing goes fore the whole lot of the God channel folks. But money could be made on people’s gullibility in a more easy way than taking on a fight with the whole scientific community. Somewhere there is a reason why people are ready to pay for it and are willing to believe in it even when it’s so obviously ludicrous like when Mr. Ham are held as a scientific expert while he gets puzzled by the fact that the sun burns without oxygen. Why do people still cling to him for hope? Edited by jerker77, : No reason given.Edited by jerker77, : No reason given.

Ah, but they do not take on the science community. They do not operate in the system, abide by the ethics of science. Instead this is just another way to con folk. And remember, in the US there are enormous tax advantages as well as wonderful ways to hide and transfer funds for a religion. Don the mantel of religion and hide the money.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Of cause there is money involved and the same ridicules tax and special rights that apply in the US for religion are making their way into Europe. (In my own country, Sweden, for example the state helps the churches by taking out taxes for them from their followers!) But the money is there ripe and ready to harvest because someone is willing to pay. People would not be willing to pay for a flat earth or a Ptolemaic protagonist. Why are they willing to pay for a creationist? Surely not because they want to get rid of their money and get scammed! Edited by jerker77, : No reason given.

I agree with what jar had to say, but will add this:Scams rely, for the most part, on lying to people, getting them to believe something that isn't true. Most scammers, therefore, run the risk of criminal prosecution for fraud, as well as civil liability. However, when you're selling that old time religion, or some new fangles variant thereof, that danger is eliminated. In other words, the fleeced sheep are a lot less likely to bite back.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

I was going to write "the homeschooled children didn't choose to not learn evolution" but you're pretty much right. I happen to agree with you. I was just trying to look at and argue the problem from a different point of view. It kind of helps, though, if the point of view has some basis in reality.

Because the "holy" men have convinced them that they are doing "god's work" and possibly think they are buying their way into heaven. And what makes one feel better than fighting the evils of the world, including "evil"ution?

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

Yes, sure it is the conviction and holy wrath of the flock that fuels the pockets of creationism advocates! But why are people so easily led to believe their preacher is right when he jolly sings “I don’t believe in evolution”? Must it not respond to something within themselves? Or are they just downright stupid?

I think there are several answers. One is that unfortunately, the US population in general is pretty poorly educated. This is particularly true when it comes to the sciences.Second, the people selling the Biblical Creationism are good, very good. The general pastor or preacherman in the pulpit or on the dais is generally a great, well trained speaker. They are masters of emotion and manipulation.When you put those two together, a basically uneducated audience and a masterful salesman, the result is what we see in the US today. We see programs like 60 Minutes touted as NEWS programs, we see indepth investigation being a 60 second spot instead of a 30 second one. We see absolutely masterful conmen like Ken Hamm, Duane Gish, Kent Hovind, Ron Wyatt, Gene Scott, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and the medium that allows them to reach broad audiences.Do not underestimate either side of the equation. The audience is uneducated. The salesmen are VERY good. Add in the profit motive and you get Trinity Broadcasting or Sky Angel.It is a good life.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Poor arts education is also part of the problem.The Bible is a book. A book is literature. Literature is art.You have many people who are so badly educated in art that they really do not realize they hold a work of art in their hands when they hold a Bible. And telling them doesn't help. They don't know what that means. They don't know how to treat art, read it, make sense of it. Say the Bible is a work of literature--a benign, obvious fact--and they will think you mean some disrespect.What they know is newspapers and tabloids and TV news. They know science is a good, smart thing to emulate. So they treat their Bible--to show their great respect for it!--like a newspaper (which they know how to interpret) or a lab report (which they don't, but wish they did). That's how they think God should talk to them.The Bible becomes a nearly closed book. The rich variety of ways it can communicate with them is lost. The result is poverty.And one Yeshua of Nazareth had something to say about those who take advantage of the poor.When one treats a work of art as if it were science, the result is bad science--and bad art..Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair.Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

As much as it pains me, it is Art, it is Science, it is History, it is Mathematics, it is Literature, it is Language, it is all encompassing. Where the US education system was once one of the best in the world, it is now deplorable. Among the developed Nations, how many do not have a National Curriculum or Standard?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

If it only was a matter of propaganda one think it would have been an easy task to re-educate the common creationist. But as this forum gives ample proof of it is not that easy.I think people like Ham are successful because they tell people what they want to hear, they confirm their basic belief system thus providing them with a sense of security that their preconceptions were right.Creationists, at least all I have meet, are absolutist in their approach to life. They are dealing in either or’s and thus have a literalistic and anthropomorphic religion. ToE is to them a threat to something into which much emotional energy and personal prestige as well as economic resources have been invested. The cost of skipping out are simply to high and from a game theoretic point of view there will be very little sense in skipping as long as the cost of staying is relatively low. I think this is sometimes referred to as the Concord phenomenon.

Yes. They market surety. Absolute answers. Simple ones. Whether it is Creationism or Salvation, they offer a sure reply, and one that the audience wants to hear.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion