Take the state out of the schools!!!!!

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:

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Yes, considering that today more people in the US than ever believe in silliness like homeopathy, magnet therapy, and psychic's ability to talk to the dead.

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It is too much to ask people to think critically when uncritical thought is at an all time high among our population.

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This again points to the education system. People take what the read/hear as fact, because they have been taught to regurgitate information instead of process it.

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Thanx for solidifying my belief that the current system doesn't work.

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The current system WOULD work just fine, as it has in the past, if we funded all schools well and there was more parental involvement across the board.We were shocked that Sputnik was launched, so there was a big thrust in science and mathematics instruction, and, lo and behold, critical thinking among the general population was up, and belief in the paranormal was down.

Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:

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Sorry Schraf this seems like the cop out excuse to this problem. Personally I hate the idea of any sort of gun control. (this is a whole new thread)

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So, do you think that anyone should have the right to own a rocket launcher? How about a machine gun?

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Don't you think an educated mass should be able to teach their children that it is wrong to shoot others!?

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Maybe, except that the consequences of failure to teach this lesson, combined with easy availability of guns results in tragedy.Thet is the price you pay for being in love with guns.

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I think these occurances have more to do with the social damage that kids are sustaining in the school system.

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Kids have ALWAYS sustained damage in the school system, in their neighborhoods, in their families and peer groups. That is nothing new.

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I personally did not have a good go of the public school system, when I saw the Columbine shooting on the news it was not a shock. It saddened me greatly that these kids had not been able to cope with their situation and had destroyed their own lives in anger.

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And that is why guns should be kept far, far away from troubled people, and should be difficult to get and have very strict laws about keeping them secure.

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However it was an event that was becoming inevitable, you would not believe the amount of kids in our systems who have a "hit list" of peers and teachers in their schools.

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But I made mental lists of people I hated or who were mean to me when I was in school, too, and I had my fantasies of making them suffer.I don't pretend to think that the easy availability of guns is the only reason things like this hppen, but you are wrong to think it is a new thing that kids can't cope or that they get picked on at school.I think that lack of parental and community responsibility and supervision contributes greatly to the problem.In the past, troubled kids brought knives to school. It's a lot harder to mow down dozens of people with a knife. Now they go buy a gun on the street or at a gun show.

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I don't think this problem is anywhere near over, though the footage from Columbine may be deterring others with the same ideas.
I know I entertained this very thought many times growing up in the public school system, I just eventually chose drug abuse instead.

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EXACTLY. You entertained these thoughts, as a lot of people did.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B]

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. Why? Because it requires that at least one parent stays home and is motivated enough to teach a child. The rich... well they can just send their kids off to private school. For the poor... a lot of inner city families cannot afford to do this and single moms cannot afford to do this. It is unrealistic to adopt a policy of home schooling for America. I think those parents that want it, well we should let them know they can... but otherwise stay out of it.

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Part of the problem with our current system has been pointed out, the economics that gets involved. You stand a much better chance to get a good education if you are born into a rich family and live in a wealthy neighbourhood. This is not how our wonderful freedom is supposed to work, is it? Otherwise it is still as it has always been in any other "class" oriented society. The rich nobles get the best education and remain the rich nobles, while the poor peasants get a shoddy hasty education and remain poor peasants.

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This is why we need to fund all public schools in each state equally instead of having school funding based upon property taxes. I think one state voted to do that this November...was it Florida?

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I also understand the problem of single parent families, completely switching to a home system would be impossible for such people. First off any man who abandons his children and wife (girlfriend, whatever) alone to fend for themselves is no man at all.

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Agreed.

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Another problem I have which you touched on is the two working parents. I think alot of the time (not all) that this is selfishness on the part of the mother. Where she is more concerned about her career than her children and shirks her responsibility as a mother to further her own personal goals.

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Ah, classic mysogyny. How offensive.Who the hell are you to decide, for all women, what their "responsibilities" are? Since when is it SOLELY a mother's responsibility to be at home as the primary caregiver to children? Why are fathers not at all responible, in any way, for providing primary care to their children at home? Nobody blames fathers for being selfish for not staying at home with the children and having a career. Why is that? It couldn't be a double standard, would it?Wake up and move into the new millenium, Funk. Those old strict gender roles don't work any more now that women want to have a rewarding life outside the home, or stay at home with their children, IF THEY WISH. Having a career makes women more educated and more interesting people, therefore they are likely to be better mothers. Studies also show that children who spend time in good daycare are more interactive and stimulated and have better coping skills; iow are just fine.I had a stay at home mother an IT SUCKED. She didn't give me the time of day; most of the time I didn't interact with her at all and I played by myself and then got yelled at to clean up my mess. I had much more fun when I occasionally went to the babysitter's place and she actually played with me.

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The flip side of this is that North Americans are slaves to money, credit spending and keeping up with technology wastes alot of our resources. I think most people can live comfortably and happy with a whole lot less money than we seem to think we "need" to make. To shorten these two points up, it is our own greed that is robbing from the education of our children.

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I do agree with this.

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I hope I have not offended anyone with this post as I know I have made some strong statements. Please accept my apologies in advance if I have inadvertantly insulted anyone.

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SOrry, you did offend.

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
AAArrrrggghhhh *pulling own hair in frustration* lol

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I should have known to phrase that in a more "socially acceptable" fashion. I don't believe it has to be the mother no. It can and I'm sure does work the other way around.

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I must learn to state things much more clearly, it seems that as soon as a Christian says things along a certain line people suddenly jump to conclusions. I can see Schraf coming along screaming that I'm a woman hater, that I'm afraid of them like all other "fundies". This is not the case.

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Look, Funky, you were pretty damn clear when you stated that a mother is shirking her responsibilities when she works outside the home.Your blatant ommission of any mention of fathers shirking their responsibilities when they work outside the home was also crystal clear.I am not sure how you could have stated your belief that "working mothers are shirking their responsibilities" in a non-offensive way.And I didn't jump on you for it because you are a Christian. I would jump on anyone stating such...things.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-18-2002]

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Quetzal,

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I am so sorry to offend you, though I think you are an acception to the rule. That's awesome! Remember my view is limited to North America.

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Why do you think Quetzal's family is the exception to the rule? Based upon what?

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Quetzal,

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I am so sorry to offend you, though I think you are an acception to the rule. That's awesome! Remember my view is limited to North America.

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Why do you think Quetzal's family is the exception to the rule? Based upon what?

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That's an excellent question, Schraf. With the exception of our wandering lifestyle (3 countries in 8 years), I don't consider us very unusual. Most of my peers with families are quite similar in outlook and behavior. I mean, we're not doing all this racing around with kids by ourselves - a lot of our friends are doing the same thing. I think there's two problems here: 1) funk is operating under an erroneous, religiously-inspired stereotype, and 2) I'm probably the first person to sit down and actually tell him some details about "the other side".Just my thoughts on it.

Quick question Funky,Do you think that Kent Hovind would be an ideal home-schooling parent, or should people like Kent be kept as far away from real people as possible?Im not sure if Kent has kids or not, I certainly hope he hasn't, maybe he is too busy with his 300 million lectures a year to reproduce.------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

Based on observation. It's seems very rare that I run into people who are/were happy with their family life. There is so much anger towards parents, and hatred to their own families. I have met more people who were damaged by the school system than who had a positive experience from it. There is a definate problem here. This is not a religious pov. Even before I decided to walk with the Lord about 4 months ago, this was an issue that I spent alot of thought on. My solution hasn't changed, other than that I personally would say that God is the best "glue" to mend this broken situation. My views on parental involvement, and home education did not stem from my religious belief. I had formed these views prior to my committment to God.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

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Originally posted by Quetzal:

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Quetzal,

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I am so sorry to offend you, though I think you are an acception to the rule. That's awesome! Remember my view is limited to North America.

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Why do you think Quetzal's family is the exception to the rule? Based upon what?

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That's an excellent question, Schraf. With the exception of our wandering lifestyle (3 countries in 8 years), I don't consider us very unusual. Most of my peers with families are quite similar in outlook and behavior. I mean, we're not doing all this racing around with kids by ourselves - a lot of our friends are doing the same thing. I think there's two problems here: 1) funk is operating under an erroneous, religiously-inspired stereotype, and 2) I'm probably the first person to sit down and actually tell him some details about "the other side".

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Just my thoughts on it.

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Well, that's been my experience with our friends with children, too, which is why I asked.

Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:

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Based on observation. It's seems very rare that I run into people who are/were happy with their family life.

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Gee, I have lots of married friends, both with and without kids, who are really happy.I was raised by a stay at home mother and I had a pretty lousy home life.My sister is a stay at home mom but never dealt with our abusive childhood, so she is raising neurotic, unhappy kids.A different sister and a brother both did the work to deal with their abusive childhoods, and both are raising wonderful, happy kids.Hmmm, maybe the reason kids are happy or not in their home life has little to do with if their mother "selfishly" stays home and much more to do with how much support and love they get from their parents, and how emotionally healthy and happy their parents are.

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There is so much anger towards parents, and hatred to their own families. I have met more people who were damaged by the school system than who had a positive experience from it. There is a definate problem here. This is not a religious pov. Even before I decided to walk with the Lord about 4 months ago, this was an issue that I spent alot of thought on. My solution hasn't changed, other than that I personally would say that God is the best "glue" to mend this broken situation. My views on parental involvement, and home education did not stem from my religious belief. I had formed these views prior to my committment to God.

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I think the best thing to mend this situation would be;for women to get the same pay as men for doing the same work (passage of an ERA would be great).for companies and government to wake up to the fact that child care is a FAMILY issue, not "just" a women's issue.to raise the minimum wage to a living wage so even lower paying jobs wouldn't require both parents to work several jobs just to make ends meet.for the men in our culture to understand that June Cleaver never existed.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-19-2002]{Fixed a quote box - AM}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-19-2002]

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There is so much anger towards parents, and hatred to their own families. I have met more people who were damaged by the school system than who had a positive experience from it. There is a definate problem here. This is not a religious pov. Even before I decided to walk with the Lord about 4 months ago, this was an issue that I spent alot of thought on. My solution hasn't changed, other than that I personally would say that God is the best "glue" to mend this broken situation. My views on parental involvement, and home education did not stem from my religious belief. I had formed these views prior to my committment to God.

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Well I guess things are a little different here. For one it is easier for a woman/minority to get a job/education/gov't grants for buisness/tax free time to start their business than anyone else here in Canada. It's a case of trying to legislate behaviour/mentality changes, and as far as I'm concerned it doesn't work.Legislation has gone so far as to say that you have to have a certain amount of women and minorities in your employ. Well try being the employer here, what if the best person for the job is not a woman or minority and you can't hire them because you have to have x-amount of women employed for the size of your company.The problem with Canada has tried to do is that all they did was tip the scale the other way.This said I am not adverse to EQUAL pay/opportunity for everyone, the problem is that when you try to change this it just slants the other way. Another point to this is that there are plenty of situations where two white males hold the same job and do not get equal pay. Rightly so, in the case that one employee is better at the job than the other and recieves higher pay.Employer should take Collosians 4:1 to heart.

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1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

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I agree with the fact that child care is a family issue, I thought that was what I was getting at. Maybe families should quit thinking that child care has anything to do with companies or governments and quit blaming them. Realizing themselves that this is a family issue. Again I agree, following the advice in Collosians would help with this. Again though like any system in history no matter how wonderful it looks in theory and on paper will be corrupted by the same thing GREEDWho is June Cleaver?------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-20-2002]

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:

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There is so much anger towards parents, and hatred to their own families. I have met more people who were damaged by the school system than who had a positive experience from it. There is a definate problem here. This is not a religious pov. Even before I decided to walk with the Lord about 4 months ago, this was an issue that I spent alot of thought on. My solution hasn't changed, other than that I personally would say that God is the best "glue" to mend this broken situation. My views on parental involvement, and home education did not stem from my religious belief. I had formed these views prior to my committment to God.

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I think the best thing to mend this situation would be;

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for women to get the same pay as men for doing the same work (passage of an ERA would be great).

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for companies and government to wake up to the fact that child care is a FAMILY issue, not "just" a women's issue.

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to raise the minimum wage to a living wage so even lower paying jobs wouldn't require both parents to work several jobs just to make ends meet.

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for the men in our culture to understand that June Cleaver never existed.

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Well I guess things are a little different here. For one it is easier for a woman/minority to get a job/education/gov't grants for buisness/tax free time to start their business than anyone else here in Canada. It's a case of trying to legislate behaviour/mentality changes, and as far as I'm concerned it doesn't work.

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Legislation has gone so far as to say that you have to have a certain amount of women and minorities in your employ. Well try being the employer here, what if the best person for the job is not a woman or minority and you can't hire them because you have to have x-amount of women employed for the size of your company.

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The problem with Canada has tried to do is that all they did was tip the scale the other way.

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This said I am not adverse to EQUAL pay/opportunity for everyone, the problem is that when you try to change this it just slants the other way. Another point to this is that there are plenty of situations where two white males hold the same job and do not get equal pay. Rightly so, in the case that one employee is better at the job than the other and recieves higher pay.

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Employer should take Collosians 4:1 to heart.

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1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

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for companies and government to wake up to the fact that child care is a FAMILY issue, not "just" a women's issue.

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I agree with the fact that child care is a family issue, I thought that was what I was getting at. Maybe families should quit thinking that child care has anything to do with companies or governments and quit blaming them. Realizing themselves that this is a family issue.

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to raise the minimum wage to a living wage so even lower paying jobs wouldn't require both parents to work several jobs just to make ends meet.

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Again I agree, following the advice in Collosians would help with this. Again though like any system in history no matter how wonderful it looks in theory and on paper will be corrupted by the same thing GREED

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Who is June Cleaver?

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Funky,Do you think you and your good wife are capable of giving your kids a good all round unbiased education?------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

Would I take this stance if I didn't think it was feasible? What do you care what I teach my children so long as they grow up to work hard and can think? I may not be able to do a perfect job but no teacher can. One thing I can guarantee is that I could do a much better job than the system I see provided. Much better job.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:

Funky,

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Do you think you and your good wife are capable of giving your kids a good all round unbiased education?

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Would I take this stance if I didn't think it was feasible? What do you care what I teach my children so long as they grow up to work hard and can think? I may not be able to do a perfect job but no teacher can. One thing I can guarantee is that I could do a much better job than the system I see provided. Much better job.

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Funky,You OWE it to your kids to allow them to have a good all round education. I dont know how the eductaion system works in the USA but in Scotland high school kids get taught 14 different subjects in a weekly time table. Now funky, no one, not even you, could provide a better education than 14 teachers, if you think you can then why not become a teacher and do something about the poor education system that America must have if your argument is true.Also, I DO care what you and everyone else teaches their kids, I also care deeply about EVERY child I teach, contrary to your earlier claim that teachers dont care about all their student. I work very hard in and out of school to make sure that my students get the best from me, I feel it is my duty to do that, it is part of the job.You also claim that schools 'Force feed you knowledge screaming at you the whole time that your life depends on this.'Funky you cannot force feed knowledge into anyone, if they aren't interested then you are wasting your time, if the child's brain goes 'reptilian' then it doesnt matter what you do.One thing I always remember from teacher training is that students normally take what teachers say as being the truth, so I am always very careful in everything that I say. True I am an atheist that teaches religious studies but I do not say any one faith is superior to any other, I emphasise that these are belief systems that cannot be proven or disproven.Now teachers have to be impartial in what they teach, so funky if you were teaching your kids a lesson on Religious Studies would you be able to be impartial, would you teach your kids that Jesus might NOT be God and that Allah might be.How many creation myths would you teach?
Would you be able to tell them that there's no non biblical evidence for any of the Patriarchs, there's no evidence that the enslavement in Egypt happened, there's no evidence of an Exodus or a conquest.The problem I have with people educating kids at home is that they will not teach them from an objective stance, we then have the danger of indoctrination, the child is not given all the options. We then have the problem of the child not having a choice in their belief system, christians will promote christianity in their home lessons and the child will come to think that christianity is the only true choice, because students think that everything their teacher says is true.You also say that 3 years at Uni doesnt qualify you to teach. Again I do not know the USA system but in Scotland you need a degree that takes 3 years (4 if its an honours) and an extra year to do a post grad certificate in Education. I studied education alongside my honours degree and have a diploma in ed, which is between a certificate and a degree.Now anyone that has these qualfications IS qualified to teach, whether they are an effective teacher is a different thing, maybe thats what you meant?Anyway, I do care about what you teach your kids, if you were teaching them at home you MAY be depriving them (im not saying you would)of a better education, of a better chance in life, and you may be depriving them the chance to sample the beautiful philosophies of other faiths.Best wishes.Brian.------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

Even the new year could change this perception into a misperception for it may turn out that they require contrarily an Educated Masss in order to survive. We must get beyond Al K-eye Da first.