Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Scientists with a belief in creationism
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 30 (179646)
01-22-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by joshua221
01-22-2005 11:34 AM


The mentality of evolution, "only the strong survive", "kill or be killed" is sort of disturbing.
That's not the mentality of evolution, if evolution can even be said to have a "mentality."
A harsh way of seeing it, don't you think?
That the hard work of competition is the only way to achieve real reward? What's harsh about that? Isn't that the sort of rugged, can-do individualism that's so quintessentially American?
The alternative is the "everybody wins all the time, you get everything for free" mentality that religious conservatives find so repellant and "liberal." To the degree that evolution suggests that hard work is necessary for survival and gain, I would think that religious conservatives would be behind it. Except for the whole "contradicts the Bible" thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2005 11:34 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2005 4:29 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 26 by joshua221, posted 01-26-2005 10:36 PM crashfrog has replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 17 of 30 (179650)
01-22-2005 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by joshua221
01-22-2005 11:34 AM


prophex writes:
Do good in school, become popular, get the girl,
Speak for yourself.

Proof that girls are evil.
We know that girls require time and money.
girls = time X money
We know that time is money, right?
Time = money
Girls = money2
According to a great philosopher, money is the root of all evil.
Money = Squrt(evil)
Girls = Squrt(evil)2 = evil
Therefore, we are forced to conclude that girls are evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2005 11:34 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2005 4:36 PM coffee_addict has not replied
 Message 29 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-27-2005 2:40 PM coffee_addict has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 18 of 30 (179656)
01-22-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by joshua221
01-22-2005 11:34 AM


prophex
The mentality of evolution, "only the strong survive", "kill or be killed" is sort of disturbing.
This is a huge dumbing down of evolutionary process.The phrase is survival of the fittest.Strength is one aspect that may work at one scenario and doom at another.In the contest of life where the winner is that one which survives because its muscle power was greater is limited to that event where it is useful.With powerful muscles normally an increase in size is a corresponding factor.
Now in a situation where a predator is present whose strength is far in excess of the strongest individual fleeing into tight rock crevices may be the only recourse to survival and if the powerful ones are of such dimension that they do not fit into a crevice to escape they therefore become lunch.Kill or be killed is the law prevalent within nature.However it need not be killing for advantage of food resources or as meat for the animals survival it may just be for defense or,as in microbial life,a result of processes within a larger individual.
A harsh way of seeing it, don't you think?
Harsh is not the case just merely the state of reality.Nature is totally impersonal.It neither cares nor does not care for the results of the processes of interaction between participants.Death of an individual becomes opportunity and sustenance for another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2005 11:34 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2005 4:33 PM sidelined has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 30 (179705)
01-22-2005 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
01-22-2005 12:27 PM


quote:
if evolution can even be said to have a "mentality."
Mentality given off through evolutionary thinking. Oops, what I meant to have said.
quote:
That the hard work of competition is the only way to achieve real reward? What's harsh about that? Isn't that the sort of rugged, can-do individualism that's so quintessentially American?
Competition only lessens one's self-esteem. Or within capitalism provides a decent economy. Who said America was so great? The whole american dream thing is a tradgedy, making people not think of what matters, rather on the worldly materialistic desires of this man made monster. Man needs to find himself, not sit at home with the securities of shelter and family.
quote:
The alternative is the "everybody wins all the time, you get everything for free" mentality that religious conservatives find so repellant and "liberal." To the degree that evolution suggests that hard work is necessary for survival and gain, I would think that religious conservatives would be behind it. Except for the whole "contradicts the Bible" thing.
Your missing it man...

The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 01-22-2005 12:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 01-22-2005 7:42 PM joshua221 has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 30 (179708)
01-22-2005 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by sidelined
01-22-2005 12:45 PM


quote:
...survives because its muscle power was greater is limited to that event where it is useful.
Ok, "The Best Survives"
Best meaning most able for survival. Coming out on top. Donald Trump, Bill Gates for example.
quote:
Death of an individual becomes opportunity and sustenance for another.
Do you think there is more to life than that? Can't you see there is more than that within yourself?

The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by sidelined, posted 01-22-2005 12:45 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by sidelined, posted 01-22-2005 6:53 PM joshua221 has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 30 (179709)
01-22-2005 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by coffee_addict
01-22-2005 12:31 PM


quote:
Speak for yourself
You don't think that is what it comes down to?
There was an "etc..." there for a reason. That might work for Highschool at least.
This message has been edited by prophex, 01-22-2005 16:38 AM

The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by coffee_addict, posted 01-22-2005 12:31 PM coffee_addict has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 22 of 30 (179761)
01-22-2005 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by joshua221
01-22-2005 4:33 PM


prophex
Best meaning most able for survival. Coming out on top. Donald Trump, Bill Gates for example.
I don't know about you but I do not think one needs to be a Bill Gates or Donald Trump to successfully live out a life.Evolution only requires that you live long enough to reproduce after which your offspring need do the same.With the structure of todays society many survive that never would have.
Do you think there is more to life than that? Can't you see there is more than that within yourself?
Of course we can live a meaningful life full of great satisfaction,personal and social fulfillment.We can also waste it with concerns and fears about which nothing can be done to avoid,be miserable and bitter,selfish and isolated.
But both are a choice, and at the end is the end.No one gets out alive.So make your choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2005 4:33 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by joshua221, posted 01-26-2005 10:30 PM sidelined has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 23 of 30 (179771)
01-22-2005 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by joshua221
01-22-2005 4:29 PM


I don't understand your post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2005 4:29 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by joshua221, posted 01-26-2005 10:33 PM crashfrog has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 30 (180974)
01-26-2005 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by sidelined
01-22-2005 6:53 PM


quote:
I don't know about you but I do not think one needs to be a Bill Gates or Donald Trump to successfully live out a life.Evolution only requires that you live long enough to reproduce after which your offspring need do the same.With the structure of todays society many survive that never would have.
But both are a choice, and at the end is the end.No one gets out alive.So make your choice.
Great Post.
But in the end, is there really a point to the "meaningful life" by evolutionary standards?
Reproduction is key, survival.

The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by sidelined, posted 01-22-2005 6:53 PM sidelined has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 30 (180975)
01-26-2005 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
01-22-2005 7:42 PM


quote:
I don't understand your post.
Why? Maybe I can edit.

The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 01-22-2005 7:42 PM crashfrog has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 30 (180980)
01-26-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
01-22-2005 12:27 PM


quote:
That the hard work of competition is the only way to achieve real reward? What's harsh about that? Isn't that the sort of rugged, can-do individualism that's so quintessentially American?
What reward? Money? Please.

The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 01-22-2005 12:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 01-26-2005 10:54 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 28 by Loudmouth, posted 01-27-2005 12:42 PM joshua221 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 30 (180983)
01-26-2005 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by joshua221
01-26-2005 10:36 PM


What reward?
Accomplishment. Is it a big deal when someone goes from here to a place 42 km away? Not really. But when he gets there ahead of others doing the same, we call it a "marathon" and laud him with gold medals.
Accomplishment is its own reward, and the only things worth accomplishing are those for which success is not automatic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by joshua221, posted 01-26-2005 10:36 PM joshua221 has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 30 (181108)
01-27-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by joshua221
01-26-2005 10:36 PM


quote:
What reward? Money? Please.
Which are happier when they win the ultimate prize in their sport, amateurs or pros?
Personally, I would rather win the Nobel Prize and recieve praise from my peers than the million bucks that comes with it. Believe it or not, non-believers do find joy in life in things other than money.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by joshua221, posted 01-26-2005 10:36 PM joshua221 has not replied

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 29 of 30 (181117)
01-27-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by coffee_addict
01-22-2005 12:31 PM


quote:
According to a great philosopher, money is the root of all evil.
curious.......who is that great philosopher?
How can money be the root of all evil? Please explain.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Hey, Al, I agree!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by coffee_addict, posted 01-22-2005 12:31 PM coffee_addict has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 30 of 30 (181137)
01-27-2005 4:29 PM


Off Topic
Since this has spun so badly off topic I'm going to close it for a bit.

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024