The Whys of Evolution

Just found this letter to the editor in the Topeka Capital Journal.
It seemed to express a very balanced view of the core of this thread. JIM McCOLLOUGH, Topeka

That's just it. It seems like a miracle to you because you can't compare it with normal everyday experiences.A native in the Amazon might view a television set or a radio as a miracle, and we both can agree that anyone person with enough know-how can build one from scratch. Heck, when I was in high school, I built a robot from scratch that went anywhere I programmed it to, given that finding the parts that were cheap enough for it was a little hard... wanted to put a camera on it but couldn't afford one... imagine the possibilities... He he he. *Ahem... no-true-scotsman...cough cough* But you are forgetting the fact that the overwhelming majority of the population in the world are religious. The United States is the most religious country in the Western World, and it is the religious people that are pushing through laws to limit my rights.Back in the old days, when more people were more religious, slavery was A-OK. Then, a few people turned away from religion as their source of morality and ta-da slavery ended, but we still had racism all over the place. The KKK was/is a religious group themselves. A few more people stopped using religion to dictate their lives and we finally got over racist laws.Coincidently, the South (AKA bible belt) are as racist as ever. Just a few months ago, Alabama had a vote to see if people wanted to take out the segregation and anti-interracial marriage out of their law book (those laws were overwritten by Federal laws). As I recall correctly, 60-75% of the population of that state wanted to keep those laws in the book. Coincidently, yet again, Alabama is probably the leading religious state in the U.S. Oh, by the way, they also have one of the highest divorce rates (among the top 5).Nowadays, people like myself are being beaten, kicked, and outlawed. Texas just banned gays from adopting children (in other words, they'd rather these kids go around homeless than letting us adopt them). The supreme court had only declared anti-sodomy laws as unconstitutional in 2003. This happened because they actually arrested and wanted to put 2 men in prison for 20 years for sharing their love in their own bedroom in 1997.You are trying to convince us that religion teaches people tolerance and love and all of that crap. Yet, history and present day affairs seem to contradict and have always contradicted your view. In fact, I really don't see how religion will ever be able to teach people that tolerance is a good thing.Going back to one of your other statements:

quote:

---

I very much disagree with your basic premise. The religion I know by far the most about is Christianity. Christianity is about loving your neighbour, and your enemy for that matter. As I said, there will always be those who pervert the faith for a variety of motives. God is God and people will always be people. Tolerating other's points of view does not mean that you have to agree with them but true religion does mean that you respect them and love them.

---

Remember Nazi Germany? Do you really think that their victims would agree that those committing those attrocities weren't really Germans? They were something else, but they were not real Germans because real Germans were not suppose to do all those things.This is why I coughed out "no true scotsman" earlier. You can define a christian as something that only yourself can fit that category and voila the rest of the christian world seizes to be christian.

---

King Nadkicker

I don't disagree with that at all. I am limited to trying to understand basic concepts and theories as I know absolutely zero about the math involved.I've read Julian Barbour who theorizes that time and motion are illusionary, and that each moment is a separate universe. (Like I really understand what that would look like. ) Don Page suggests that the final unified theory might very well find that space is an illusion as well.Gerald Shroeder takes the string theory one step further and suggests that what is behind the energy in strings is actually information or thought.There is the theory that branes collided in a 5th dimension causing the big bang, or how about that we are really just a hologram.I don't know, but it seems to me that if we ever get empirical evidence to back up any of these or other theories science just might be able to say this is where the metaphysical joins the physical.Mind you, in my case you could easily make the point that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

You're kinda using the world "theory" a little too liberally.

---

King Nadkicker

I take your point about the Germans but I would never have disagreed with the point in the first place. Because someone is a Christian does not mean that they are a good Christian. I have known Atheists and Agnostics that are in my view more Christ-like than many Christians I've known.You commented on how you used to pray and read the Bible. Do you really think that the KKK mirrors the Christian message. I'm not an American, and no doubt your knowledge of US history is vastly superior to mine, but I've read that it was largely the opposition by the church to slavery in the US that brought about its demise.It seems to me that if you want to judge Buddhism you go to the teachings of Buddha, if you want to judge Judaism read what the prophets had to say and if you want to judge Christanity read Christ's message.People no matter what their faith are going to do hateful things. In religious parlance, the hope in this world would be that faith makes you a better person than what you would have been otherwise.

Jesus himself (quoted by Matthew) told us to judge people by what they do, not what they say.

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Actually, it was the other way around. The majority of the churches at the time were very much for slavery. They even taught the slaves that if they remained good slaves that they would find rewards in heaven. I actually wrote an essay on the biblical arguments for slavery. Trust me, the bible is littered with passages supporting slavery. I don't know. Does it? I don't agree. I judge them based on what kind of impact they have on people. With the case of christianity, it doesn't seem very people friendly. That's why I always encourage people to abandon faith overall and take as many philosophy classes as they can, especially philosophy of ethics.Even though I view religion as the fuel source for hate, I see ignorance as the spark and the fire. As far as I know, not a single christian I know know or heard of moral theories in philosophy of ethics. They all seem to think that reading the bible alone makes them good christians.You see, philosophy makes people think and pushes their limits further back. It makes people realize that you don't need a middle man (AKA god) to find morality. And by being able to think for themselves, they will learn empathy.Doesn't it strike you odd that most christian rednecks can't even read properly (not meant to be taken literally)? It's because religion encourages ignorance more than any other philosophy.Edited to add:And what Ringo said above.This message has been edited by GAW-Snow, 05-25-2005 12:14 PM

---

King Nadkicker

Hello? Beg pardon?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The 'empirical evidence' issue is really the crux of the matter for me.
Without it, all this type of suppositional thinking cannot be taken too seriously. Also, as you seem to enjoy reading all this esoteric material, I would suggest you ask yourself one question repeatedly. Is this particular idea presented in a form that is testable, i.e. is it feasible to formulate a falsifiable hypothesis that might support or refute this idea? If you cannot answer 'yes', then the idea does not constitute a scientific theory.

Technically, an ape can't be a christian.

There might be problems with suggesting such a thing. Remember that the average person don't even know how to accurately measure the diameter of the Earth with only a ruler and a pair of legs.

As stated, perhaps a bit extreme.
But I am inclined to agree that the 'encouraging of ignorance' is one implicit effect of religion, rather than its explicit goal.
The very concept of 'faith', common to all religions, requires unquestioning belief and this runs counter to the principles of objective investigation and therefore counter to what is necessary to 'dispell ignorance'.

I think that is a mistaken assumption on both sides of the aisle. I imagine that you've seen it here quite often.But there is nothing in religion that requires unquestioned belief. In fact, a belief that is unquestioned, unchallenged, untested or tempered is a pretty weak belief. This is one reason so many people seem to get upset when their beliefs are challenged.I agree that many time religious beliefs are taught and religious leaders use the tactic of "Unquestion" as an easy cop-out. But that's all it is. Accepting Dogma, whether it's religious, political, cultural or philosophical is easy. Critically examining those beliefs, testing and tempering them is work, hard, often unpleasant, work.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm afraid! "Not producing beneficial results" this thread has become.GAW, can you redeem us now? I fear the Admins are coming to bury our stenched corpses:Decayed, dying, cursed, and played-out, we have become.One Prophecy Remains: Re-invent more credible strawman-tales swiftly, or this thread will perish in outer darkness.

Actually Philip I think that the thread is on topic. The thread was about the WHYs of evolution and the suggestion that it should be taught not as science but as philosophy.ID is a very broad term that can encompass everything from Deism to Christianity. This discussion is about whether there is ID or not, (ID does encompass Chritianity as well as Deism etc), and whether or not the discussion that we are having here should also be held in the classroom.