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Author Topic:   No evolution/creation debate in Europe
anglagard
Member (Idle past 945 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 29 of 107 (442926)
12-23-2007 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
12-22-2007 8:42 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
Buzsaw writes:
As Joseph Goebbel stated, falsehoods can be repeated to the point of believability. (not direct quote) Abe: Of course we know which ideology the students hear the most.
I would assume this observation is not only meant for secular education but also includes the home-schooled and students in religious institutions such as certain schools, colleges, and churches.
Edited by anglagard, : left out a word

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 12-22-2007 8:42 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2007 9:51 AM anglagard has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 945 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 30 of 107 (442929)
12-23-2007 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Archer Opteryx
12-23-2007 4:21 AM


Re: historical problems
Archer writes:
There's another reason Europeans don't laugh as hard as the author of our OP imagines: they know the history. If the New World is disproportionately populated today by people who take religion very, very seriously, it is because European kings and queens once took religion seriously enough to imprison and kill their ancestors for theirs.
Yes, a point I was going to bring up myself to some extent.
Here is my take:
To elaborate regarding the history of the US relative to Europe, I think the result of not having a state religion or a uniform religion purged of dissenters (think Inquisition or the Huguenots) is that every take on religion, no matter how wacky it may appear to outsiders, often found fertile ground in the US. It is no mistake that Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, and Seventh Day Adventists all started here instead of Europe.
As to the idea of modern creation 'science,' virtually all roots go back to the Millerites, who spawned many of the US home-grown denominations. Despite continuous failure in predicting the exact date of the end of the world, the leaders and adherents always came up with excuses for the failure of their prophecies, even to the point where they became experts at denial and delusion.
Having repeatedly failed at the end-time stuff and evidently tired of being on the defensive, they decided to attack 'modernity' of which science is a part. Populist concerns with having to adapt from a simple independent farm-based economy to an industrial one caused much anxiety which found a relief in adherence to over-simplistic and anti-intellectual 'old-time-religion.'
One small problem with lacking a deep history or ancient culture is that it allows too much respectability to being anti-intellectual as witnessed by our play-stupid politicians. It's like "vote for me because I am as ignorant as you are."
Ask Agnew, Reagan, Bush, or Huckabee for further details.
But I digress. I say scratch a YEC deep enough and in all likelihood you will find a Millerite

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-23-2007 4:21 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 945 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 79 of 107 (479286)
08-26-2008 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Beretta
08-22-2008 7:39 AM


Europe Rocks! (and so does Canada)
quote:
How could you teach children something that's based COMPLETELY and ENTIRELY on belief?
Beretta writes:
You mean like evolution?
The question is not whether or not an explanation is based on a personal belief, but is it true? An explanation may be both based on a personal belief and true. Personal beliefs are rarely based on nothing.Facts don't speak for themselves, they are interpreted within a framework.
I don' see Europe trying to cram a specific cult fringe Christian belief system down everyone's throat in the school system as in the US.
The simple fact is, the denial of reality in favor of the 'ignorance is bliss' interpretation of the Bible common with homegrown US cults such as Seventh Day Adventists, Pentecosts, and other assorted forms of US fringe Christianity, is not shared by nearly all Europeans, Japanese most other educated people even in third world nations. A minority of religious fanatics in the US are simply attempting to overthrow the Constitution and establish a dictatorship of Megachurch Mullahs.
It will never work anyway.
How can a person who denies radiometric decay flatly state such a position does not conflict with chemistry and physics except out of total fanatical ignorance.
How can a person think the US can drill for more oil to solve the energy crisis without the use of basic geologic principles that include an old earth and the evolution of various indicative fossils as a guide of where to drill? Doodlebugs and water witches are a bit difficult to use under several thousand feet of ocean.
How can any progress be made against disease when the central theory of biology is denied due to a minority position of religious fanatics who prefer mullahs to presidents and have such a proven record of extremely loose morals.
Naturally the proposed rule by sufficiently 'Christian' mullahs would exterminate the economy first, then the military.
I guess that in order to escape that inevitable fact one could emulate Mao as a model. He forced the entire population of China to undergo the Cultural Revolution where blind faith in the supreme mullah overrode all other considerations. Of course he did not allow his little red minions to interfere with the military, the nascent space program, or the petroleum industry. Thats strange, he proved he was as much a hypocrite as our fundies are.
So after Mao's Cultural Revolution along with the Great Leap Forward managed to exterminate some 40 to 60 million Chinese in the space of 15 years, I wonder if the fundies in the US consider that a record to be broken. After all, one of your own exposed at Pharyngula has called for the imprisonment and, something to replace normal sex in the perverted, namely torture, of all biologists in CSA News.
CSA? isn't that acronym shared by pro-slavery traitors from US history?
Perhaps Europe has simply had enough of religious warfare and self-appointed authoritarians with a direct line to god, providence, or the supposedly inevitable Marxist revolution. It sure took long enough.
It would be nice if this nation could learn from them to fully see and reject exactly what the hate and fear cults promise, namely suffering and death in the here and now.
{ABE} Of course I am speaking as a US citizen. If you are an unrepentant Boer supporter of apartheid, which I suspect, anything I stated concerning the state of democracy in the US is likely completely beyond your comprehension.{/abe}
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.
Edited by anglagard, : clarity

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Beretta, posted 08-22-2008 7:39 AM Beretta has not replied

  
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