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Author Topic:   No evolution/creation debate in Europe
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005

Message 58 of 107 (478847)
08-21-2008 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Beretta
08-21-2008 10:16 AM

Re: Communism Europe and the evolution indoctrination
Well now I call that incredibly sad. Communists sure know how to indoctrinate and evolution is all part of it -a very important part. After all how are we going to bow down to our leader if we have God.
It is sad. Any time the government decides to make religion (or non-religion) mandatory by law is a travesty of justice. But while the rationale you mention may well have been the reasoning of the Communist Party, it doesn't mean God exists.
I see that this Europe thread isn't really doing much so I'll speak for South Africa. Having lived in Canada and Zimbabwe, I have to say that South Africa has to be the most Christian nation in the world apart from, maybe, the United States. I learned all about evolution in Canada and then at University in South Africa but as far as the schools go, nothing substantial hit the books until this year. Suddenly it is required learning and goes well with the general downfall of the country. We used to be taught real physics and chemistry and biology, now we have evolution and we get to learn all about our ascent from the apes.
...except of course that evolution is grounded in observation and evidence just as strongly as any part of physics and chemistry, and is the entire groundwork for modern biology. Continuing to learn about well-founded science in science classes and continuing to develop a country struggling to catch up to the rest of the world is a good thing, Beretta. Not learning about evolution is in effect a step backwards, and would continue to leave South Africa behind the rest of the developed world in science education. Without evolution, modern medical research, genetics, and all of the other biological fields simply don't work. Do you think it's a good idea to simply have South Africa not join the rest of the world in understanding those fields? Is it fair to say to South African kids, "we're not going to teach you about evolution, and so you're not likely ever going to be the one to find a cure for AIDS or cancer, you'll never be a biologist, your medical education will always be substandard, and other countries will laugh at you, all because of our religious beliefs that you may or may not share?" Really, is that fair?
I feel incredibly sorry for those in countries that do not have the opportunity to learn about God's existence.
Personally, I wish I hadn't been indoctrinated into the Christian faith from birth. It would have made that whole deconversion process, an emotionally difficult period, unnecessary.
If it hadn't been for South Africa, I would have had no clue either.I used to think the Christians were really quite silly believing in myths but now I know that it was not myth that they believed in, but truth.
...and yet you wouldn't be able to present any evidence for that supposed "truth," would you.
As for Europeans, I meet plenty of them here and I know without asking that God does not exist in the majority of their lives because the indoctrination of years in Europe has had its effect.
What do you mean, the "indoctrination of years in Europe?" You mean simply learning accepted science in science classrooms without religious bias? You mean growing up in an atmosphere where the nonreligious are not considered aberrations (or as George Bush Sr. described us, "neither citizens nor patriots")? Are you making another reference to the antireligious agenda of the Soviets? Because if you'll notice the Christian religion is still going quite strongly in former Soviet-held territories. From what I understand (and someone is welcome to jump in with actual numbers), the European countries with the least amount of religious citizenry were all not under the Iron Curtain, so the Soviets can't be to blame. What indoctrination do you mean?
My daughter is spending the year in England and has found to her horror how Godless the people are. She thought everyone believed in God. I am incredibly grateful that I have been able to bring my children up in South Africa despite the state of the country now. What they have learned here will never leave them.
I'm incredibly amused every time a Jehova's Witness or Mormon knocks on my door and reacts with shock when I tell them I don't believe in any god at all. They're always so used to preaching to a slightly different choir.
But then, I used to be like that too. Growing up in the American midwest, brought up by extremely religious parents, sent to private religious schools and Bible camps, I not only thought that everyone in the world was Christian, I thought Jews were just characters in the Bible until I moved to the East Coast at 11 and actually met some Jewish people. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's embarrassing, and the lack of exposure to any other culture or belief set demonstrates exactly how even mainstream Christianity behaves exactly like a cult, and the only difference is popularity.
As the country disintegrates, so does our dependance on God increase. The evolution/creation controversy is going to be big in this country now that we are forced to teach evolution to the children. We are a little behind in the debate but it's coming.
And if your side wins, the youth of the nation will be condemned to be the laughing stocks of the entire scientific community when they graduate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Beretta, posted 08-21-2008 10:16 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-21-2008 11:55 AM Rahvin has replied
 Message 68 by Beretta, posted 08-24-2008 5:38 AM Rahvin has not replied

Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005

Message 60 of 107 (478849)
08-21-2008 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by New Cat's Eye
08-21-2008 11:55 AM

Re: off topic side question
Are you sure he was talking about "you" (plural)?
How do you know he was talking about atheists, as in people who lack a belief in gods, rather than Atheists, as in people who hold a positive belief that god doesn't exist?
You know, the definition of atheists is a little different these days.
I'd say that Strong Atheists are fairly retarded, not that I know any personally. But its an illogical position. WHat that has to do with being a citizen or patriot, I don't know, but I don't think your correct on who GB Sr. was talking about.
I don't draw any distinction between so-called "strong and weak" Atheism for the purposes of Bush Sr's quote. Frankly, even your defense of his statement seems retarded.
Here's the full quote:
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?
Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
See, Bush wasn't asked what he though of people who believed a God's existence was impossible, nor was he asked about people who simply lacked faith. He said "No, I don't believe Atheists should be considered citizens or patriots." That's the former President of the fucking United States essentially saying that there should be a religious test for citizenship. Even non-Atheists should be offended at that idea, as it runs compeltely counter to the Constitution.
Further, his statement immediately afterward was, "This is one nation under God." Clearly, Bush was not drawing any distinction between "strong and weak" Atheists, he was speaking about all those who do not believe in god. I'd doubt Bush (Sr or Jr) even knows there's a difference between a "strong or weak" Atheist.
I think you're just praciticing idiotic Bush apologetics, CS. He said what he said, and I don't see any interpretation other than "if you don't believe in God, I don't consider you to be a patriot or even a citizen." How could you possibly interpret it differently, and why on Earth would you think I would give two shits more or less if Bush was speaking only about "strong" Atheists?!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-21-2008 11:55 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-21-2008 12:31 PM Rahvin has not replied

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