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Author Topic:   Evidence for a Conspiracy of Scientists?
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 85 (200085)
04-18-2005 10:56 AM


Of course, the Evil Atheist conspiracy is really all about self-worship:
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/temple.html

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Tusko, posted 04-21-2005 5:04 AM contracycle has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 17 of 85 (200394)
04-19-2005 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by arachnophilia
04-17-2005 8:50 PM


Re: let's talk about the OTHER conspiracy for a second
quote:
i don't think the bible's doing so good at explaining natural phenomina. i don't really even think it TRIES to.
Well, I suppose it made a pretty good crack at it when it was written, but it looks largely obsolete in the face of the last couple of thousand years of scientific enquiry.
I wasn't really suggesting that it makes a very good job of explaining natural phenomena. I was just trying to think of a way to make the insidious "conspiracy" come out into the open so it could be subjected to some scrutiny, and most likely, be laughed out of town.
For instance, I'd like to hear how the conspirators stop creationist scientists from publishing their refutations of the body of modern science AND BECOMING STINKINGLY RICH AND FAMOUS as a result. But we never do. It really annoys me.
This message has been edited by Tusko, 04-19-2005 12:34 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by arachnophilia, posted 04-17-2005 8:50 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by arachnophilia, posted 04-19-2005 5:56 PM Tusko has replied
 Message 25 by Brad McFall, posted 04-20-2005 8:30 PM Tusko has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 18 of 85 (200476)
04-19-2005 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tusko
04-19-2005 1:08 PM


Re: let's talk about the OTHER conspiracy for a second
Well, I suppose it made a pretty good crack at it when it was written,
well, that's why i wrote the second sentance. i don't think the bible EVER attempted to explain any sorts of detail about the natural world. the only crack they take it is genesis 1, and that story is largely borrowed from babylon anyways.
but the point of what i said was that genesis in particular is not a set of explanations of natural things. it's a set of explanations for traditions. these are usually found at the ends of passages. genesis 1 for instance is not about the creation of the universe, it's about why we're supposed to take saturdays off. genesis 2 is not about the garden of eden. it's about why men and women marry. genesis 3 is about why snakes crawl on their bellies, why childbirth/parenting is painful, and why the people of israel keep trying to farm a desert. these are SOCIAL things, not SCIENTIFIC things.
every bit of the book indicates that the redactors were not concerned with logical and factual detail, just meaning. stories overlap, and are inconsistent. they just didn't care at all about accuracy to reality, just internal accuracy of the source texts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tusko, posted 04-19-2005 1:08 PM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 8:37 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 21 by Tusko, posted 04-20-2005 4:15 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 85 (200541)
04-19-2005 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by arachnophilia
04-19-2005 5:56 PM


If I were a Jew
I'd be pissed as hell at Moses. He dragged us away from good homes and three square, pulled and pushed our asses all over the desert and mountains, kept us away from the promised land until every one of us that started out died and then dumped us in the one place in the Middle East that has no oil.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by arachnophilia, posted 04-19-2005 5:56 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by arachnophilia, posted 04-20-2005 2:47 AM jar has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 20 of 85 (200605)
04-20-2005 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
04-19-2005 8:37 PM


Re: If I were a Jew
I'd be pissed as hell at Moses. He dragged us away from good homes and three square,
well, you know, if you ignore the slavery.
pulled and pushed our asses all over the desert and mountains, kept us away from the promised land until every one of us that started out died
yeah that was kinda lame.
and then dumped us in the one place in the Middle East that has no oil.
but milk and honey, apparently.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 8:37 PM jar has not replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 21 of 85 (200624)
04-20-2005 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by arachnophilia
04-19-2005 5:56 PM


Re: let's talk about the OTHER conspiracy for a second
I was thinking of the stuff that you raised - you know - the firmament and all that jazz. That looks like an attempt to describe the natural world. And the other classic I suppose is the flatness of the earth. Or that pi is around about 3. All that looks plausible enough if you don't have the ability to make the kind of observations that we can nowadays.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by arachnophilia, posted 04-19-2005 5:56 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by arachnophilia, posted 04-20-2005 4:29 AM Tusko has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 22 of 85 (200627)
04-20-2005 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tusko
04-20-2005 4:15 AM


Re: let's talk about the OTHER conspiracy for a second
I was thinking of the stuff that you raised - you know - the firmament and all that jazz. That looks like an attempt to describe the natural world.
it is to some degree. but it's more of a cursory statement of how things got to be, for the purposes of preserving traditions. the point of the creation story is not the explanation of how god made the earth in the 6 days, but why we should take the 7th off.
the evidence is that the redactors didn't care about fitting the story with reality, just preserving the tradition. although originally, the source of the story (probably babylonian, actually) probably WAS an attempt to explain the natural world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tusko, posted 04-20-2005 4:15 AM Tusko has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Dead Parrot, posted 04-20-2005 5:14 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Dead Parrot
Member (Idle past 3345 days)
Posts: 151
From: Wellington, NZ
Joined: 04-13-2005


Message 23 of 85 (200639)
04-20-2005 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by arachnophilia
04-20-2005 4:29 AM


Re: let's talk about the OTHER conspiracy for a second
not the explanation of how god made the earth in the 6 days, but why we should take the 7th off.
Just think, if God hadn't spent so much time fiddling around the platypus, Ayer's rock and the venus fly trap and got on with it, we could have a shorter working week...

Mat 27:5 And he went and hanged himself
Luk 10:37 Go, and do thou likewise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by arachnophilia, posted 04-20-2005 4:29 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by arachnophilia, posted 04-20-2005 6:57 PM Dead Parrot has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 24 of 85 (200751)
04-20-2005 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Dead Parrot
04-20-2005 5:14 AM


Re: let's talk about the OTHER conspiracy for a second
Just think, if God hadn't spent so much time fiddling around the platypus, Ayer's rock and the venus fly trap and got on with it, we could have a shorter working week...
well, his son also apparently rose from the dead on a SUNday (no coincidence there), so we get two days off, really.
religion: n. a good excuse for a holiday.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Dead Parrot, posted 04-20-2005 5:14 AM Dead Parrot has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 25 of 85 (200770)
04-20-2005 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tusko
04-19-2005 1:08 PM


Re: let's talk about the OTHER conspiracy for a second
quote:
I'd like to hear how the conspirators stop creationist scientists from publishing their refutations of the body of modern science AND BECOMING STINKINGLY RICH AND FAMOUS as a result. But we never do.
Neither side is a heavy weight. The evos have the burden of the development of molecular biological terms without dividing the theoretical interest while creos have the suffiency to reveal to the infinte measurements inherent in the structure of the same. There is money to made. I hope it occurrs before I die without my son knowing who I am.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tusko, posted 04-19-2005 1:08 PM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Tusko, posted 04-21-2005 4:22 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 26 of 85 (200873)
04-21-2005 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Brad McFall
04-20-2005 8:30 PM


Re: let's talk about the OTHER conspiracy for a second
Thanks for your reply, Brad. I think I understand what you are saying. Could you just clarify something you said a moment for me? What do you mean in the above post when you say "dividing the theoretical interest"?
You sound quite confident there will be a paradigm shift in scientific understanding sometime in the near future. I was wondering what you were basing this belief on? I am not a scientist, and sometimes find scientific language hard to follow, but I am very interested to hear your opinions.
I like the new avatar, too. Has anyone said that it looks like a mischevious walrus with its nose pressed up against the glass?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Brad McFall, posted 04-20-2005 8:30 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Brad McFall, posted 04-21-2005 2:58 PM Tusko has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 27 of 85 (200879)
04-21-2005 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by contracycle
04-18-2005 10:56 AM


Shocking! The pitiful self-love of some of these atheists boggles even my mind.
How's yours coming along?
As a member of the church of Undecido-tron, god of the easily confused, I decided to leave my half-arsed wank-pillar incomplete as a kind of gesture of my own humility, intelligence and skill.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by contracycle, posted 04-18-2005 10:56 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by contracycle, posted 04-21-2005 8:09 AM Tusko has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 85 (200897)
04-21-2005 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tusko
04-21-2005 5:04 AM


quote:
How's yours coming along?
404 - Page not found
Very well thank you. Ignore the environmentalist disinfomartion on the above page, though - thats only to distract fools, of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tusko, posted 04-21-2005 5:04 AM Tusko has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 29 of 85 (200950)
04-21-2005 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tusko
04-21-2005 4:22 AM


Re: let's talk about the OTHER conspiracy for a second
By divide the theoretical interest I meant in short say, the consequence of quantum complementarity for the biology of apple tree grafts. This would divde an art of physical teleology in the triple relations of phenotype, geneotype and niche for instance and would permit an allowance to invelop the natural purpose biogeographically of what topography might indeed be for. Let me explain
In SPECIATIONAL EVOLUTION THROUGH PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIA
(Toward New Philosophy of Biology)
Mayr distinguishes three exceedingly different concepts of evolution. {saltational evoltution, transformational evolution, and variational evolution}. Physical teleology is necessary to biogeography so as to link these positions on biological change of form-making to translation in space and answers thereat what topography is for genetically but to do so divides Mayr’s investment in typologizing BOTH Agassiz and Rosen, Nelson and Platnick. It is unclear if the multidimensional taxonomy that might separate out this deductive future while continue to place the linguistic level difference between the deme and the species nor that so separated clusters need necessarily be not polyphletic nor necessarily not polygenic. If the translation assists in a human economy of change it does not matter whether the classification is in fidelity with Hennig or not. This however does not return the taste for establishement of an art of the division therefrom but instead remands a natural purpose for life OF EARTH.
It seems to me that Richard Lewontin made claims about the FUNCTION of theoretical studies in population biology because no matter infinite measurements MacArthur might have adumbrated accrued alike to niches as well as phenotypes and geneotypes the finiteness might still be accepted by thought of recursion within a cycle of analytica population biology of sensu population genetics strictly setting limits to the molecular expansion that biology witness day by day and term by term. But because there DOES exist math in which infinite processing can be apportioned to variations by denying that the function is on the actual manifestion being explained and not on the possiblilty of an exemplar it seems that any retrodiction of the difference between phenotype and geneotype can not withstand conceptual hierarhicaliation in which the niche must be thought as the species level is granted the ontological status of the deme when it comes to relating adaptation and time.
If the analysis of biology proceeds no further there can not be the division I suggested but it appears that the reason Lewontin insistant on the variational kind of changability does not grant this extended discussion is because although he wishes to maintain the kinematic changes molecular biology can reduce biology to he does not think infinte variable additions will alter his rejection of quantum mechanics IN THE QUESTION. I suspect that it is not that Delbruck was simply correct that history makes adaptations different telenomically than inanimate matter but that even in quantum mecahanics the variables that are being commuted are not the real ones. I am not necessarily saying there is some hidden variable here but only that should quantum computation achieve commerce materiality it will become outcompeted by biological inspired developments without entanglement providing the basis from which the parallel processing might be accomplished. THIS is where the division of the interest would be most stark. I suspect an underlaying 1-D symmetry biological fit where current Borhian philosophy differs from Einstein’s nondevelopement of Debeys ideas. I am investigating the possibility that the temporality of adaptability that Mayr denied to Fisher, Haldane and Wright can indeed be read from their work through macrothermodyanmics. That is how Mayr resolved the tension but he did so assuming that no more terminological reduction was possible in the same water. I think he was mistaken because of his linking phenetically Agassiz and READERS OF CROIZAT in Hutchinson’s notion of taxa. He therethrough categorically misses any contribution that Wise breaking from Gould might induce should the synthesis I project actually happen and not be but the dream of a theoretician.
I have started to explain to Ben how I think quantum notions DO provide meaningful insight into the nervous system and I will later expand on diaelectric traits(in electric fish say) that divide the capital to split down the middle the following graph due to thermal current diaelectric losses(Faraday’s question as to if a fish can be alternatively a conductor and an insulator) but anyway it is because I can simply imagine these situations that I discover in my own mind, that some change will happen. It will happen not because some neat technology will result but because human population expansion will request something like this, as the only alternative, given that today in our present knowledge,the alternative(sic) is is war. We already have enough of that. Then we will be able to say outside law what geographic place is is. It was not the WhiteHouse.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 04-21-2005 01:59 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Tusko, posted 04-21-2005 4:22 AM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Tusko, posted 04-28-2005 8:18 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 30 of 85 (203264)
04-28-2005 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Brad McFall
04-21-2005 2:58 PM


Re: let's talk about the OTHER conspiracy for a second
Hi Brad -
Sorry that I haven't responded sooner. I have to admit to having trouble getting to grips with your post, and as a result of this difficulty have delayed any response until I got a proper chance to go over your message again. I tried to give it a proper read through just a second ago, but to no avail; I'm not understanding it, I'm afraid.
I hope you don't get too frustrated when this happens, especially when you obviously spent so much time formulating it. It is certainly frustrating for me, because I feel like I might potentially be able to comprehend and enjoy your thoughtful contributions if I had a better grasp of the apparently scientific language that you use.
Perhaps you don't feel like it, but if you could paraphrase your argument in terms that a layman could understand, then I'd be very grateful.
Thanks Brad!
[edited to conceal my secret identity]
This message has been edited by Tusko, 04-28-2005 08:20 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Brad McFall, posted 04-21-2005 2:58 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Brad McFall, posted 05-03-2005 7:31 PM Tusko has not replied

  
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