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Author Topic:   Why Evolution is science
Oliver
Junior Member (Idle past 5159 days)
Posts: 16
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Joined: 02-04-2007


Message 166 of 200 (382387)
02-04-2007 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by crashfrog
02-04-2007 1:37 PM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science
The fact is that we have distinctly different creatures on this planet, yes, we are all made up of atoms and most creatures have common features such as eyes, ears and skin but we observe that they're different for example a dog and a fish. Now logic would conclude that those creatures had a common ancestor meaning that the fish gave rise to various species of fish if you would like. Just like we have variations of birds, cats and dogs, we have variations of humans to a lesser extent. This reveals to me a common designer, that seems logical to me. Coming back to your post, on what basis do you believe that creature x evolved into creature y (x and y denoting two different creatures) when we simply cannot observe the changes since they happened over millions and millions of years according to Evolution theory? Consider that certain assumptions not based on science have been made in order that evolution seem more plausible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by crashfrog, posted 02-04-2007 1:37 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Chiroptera, posted 02-04-2007 2:14 PM Oliver has replied
 Message 181 by crashfrog, posted 02-04-2007 3:26 PM Oliver has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 167 of 200 (382388)
02-04-2007 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Oliver
02-04-2007 1:34 PM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science
Welcome to the fray, Oliver.
There are many different species of birds but they're still birds, they're just different variations and have adapted.
But before they were birds they were dinosaurs - you are only looking at the current result and not the process. Archaeopteryx is part of the lineage of transition.
That sounds like micro-evolution to me. Now, if you can, give me an ovserved case of macro-Evoltion, that is a creature completely changing into something esle?
Doesn't happen that way, this is a common creationist misconception of evolution, and not what the science says. Macroevolution is the accumulation of many microevolutionary changes, each one a step that of itself is not remarkable: how many pennies does it take to make a thousand dollars? When does the thousand dollars "appear" in the bank account?
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 1:34 PM Oliver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 2:36 PM RAZD has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 200 (382390)
02-04-2007 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Oliver
02-04-2007 1:59 PM


Macro-Evo not Science -- This is the topic
Hello again, Oliver.
Actually, in your original post you claim:
Science demands that that which is studied be testable, demonstrable and observable of which Evolution doesn't qualify.
The point that people are trying to make (including me) is that this is incorrect. According the widely recognized standards of what is and is not science, the theory of evolution does count as science.
Just to try to keep things from veering off before we adequately address the original points.

This world can take my money and time/ But it sure can't take my soul. -- Joe Ely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 1:59 PM Oliver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 2:24 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Oliver
Junior Member (Idle past 5159 days)
Posts: 16
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Joined: 02-04-2007


Message 169 of 200 (382391)
02-04-2007 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Jon
02-04-2007 1:45 PM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science
Well you're assuming that the Egyptians built them, there's a real difference here. Now consider that maybe giants built those pyramids even before the Egyptians were around. A bible verse mentions that 'there were giants on the Earth in those days'. Now if I'm totally off-track here remember that the Evolution theory is based on wild figures of millions of years which we cannot even comprehend, which are in fact inferential. We're talking thousands of years which is far easier to comprehend and doesn't require mental gymnastics. Must just add that those millions of years are based largely on circular reasoning for example the rocks are used to date the fossils and the fossils are used to date the rocks.

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 Message 165 by Jon, posted 02-04-2007 1:45 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Chiroptera, posted 02-04-2007 2:23 PM Oliver has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 200 (382393)
02-04-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Oliver
02-04-2007 2:18 PM


Watch the topic!
Again, the topic is not whether the theory of evolution is correct, or whether or not there are competing theories of the history of life. The topic is whether the theory of evolution is science.

This world can take my money and time/ But it sure can't take my soul. -- Joe Ely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 2:18 PM Oliver has not replied

  
Oliver
Junior Member (Idle past 5159 days)
Posts: 16
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Joined: 02-04-2007


Message 171 of 200 (382394)
02-04-2007 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Chiroptera
02-04-2007 2:14 PM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science -- This is the topic
Hi Chiroptera
Thats perfectly agreeable, it's just that so many claim Evolution to be scientific fact and I think that the majority of evolutionists would disagree with your post. I will add that I like Science, heck!, it certainly has brought us this far.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Chiroptera, posted 02-04-2007 2:14 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by PaulK, posted 02-04-2007 2:30 PM Oliver has not replied
 Message 174 by Chiroptera, posted 02-04-2007 2:35 PM Oliver has replied

  
Oliver
Junior Member (Idle past 5159 days)
Posts: 16
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Joined: 02-04-2007


Message 172 of 200 (382397)
02-04-2007 2:26 PM


Yep, it really is easy to stray from the topic. I don't think I have much more to add though so I may move on sometime..

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by RAZD, posted 02-04-2007 2:40 PM Oliver has not replied
 Message 178 by Chiroptera, posted 02-04-2007 2:56 PM Oliver has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 173 of 200 (382398)
02-04-2007 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Oliver
02-04-2007 2:24 PM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science -- This is the topic
I owuld say that some expansions or caveats to Chiropter's post might be desirable - but there's nothing badly wrong with it.
In contrast you are using a definition of "macro-evolution" that appears to be your own invention (without even mentioning that fact) and not explaining why your demand for direct observation is a requirement of science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 2:24 PM Oliver has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 200 (382399)
02-04-2007 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Oliver
02-04-2007 2:24 PM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science -- This is the topic
quote:
...it's just that so many claim Evolution to be scientific fact and I think that the majority of evolutionists would disagree with your post.
I'm not sure what you think that the majority of evolutionists would disagree with. The theory of evolution is testable according to the meaning of "testable" that science uses. The theory of evolution is observable according to the meaning of "observable" that science uses.
Furthermore, even though this is not quite on topic, let me add that evolution is a "scientific fact", at least as much as anything can be called a "scientific fact". Multiple lines of evidence, in many different fields of science, using very different methods of investigation, all give a remarkably consistent picture of the history of life on earth. The evidence is plentiful and unambiguous enough that it is difficult to imagine that life did not evolve from a common ancestor.

This world can take my money and time/ But it sure can't take my soul. -- Joe Ely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 2:24 PM Oliver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 2:55 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Oliver
Junior Member (Idle past 5159 days)
Posts: 16
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Joined: 02-04-2007


Message 175 of 200 (382400)
02-04-2007 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by RAZD
02-04-2007 1:59 PM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science
Hi razd
How do you know that birds were once dinosaurs? Do you accept this because science tells you so?
Remeber, that was millions of years ago so how does anyone know?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by RAZD, posted 02-04-2007 1:59 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by RAZD, posted 02-04-2007 3:27 PM Oliver has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 176 of 200 (382402)
02-04-2007 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Oliver
02-04-2007 2:26 PM


Oliver,
Can you tell me what these are?:

note: the last is an artist rendition, and thus fur length and color and the fullness of the body are not necessarily valid, and are probably influenced by knowing what the descendants look like.
Would you say that whatever they are, that the animals that descended from them will always be of that group of animals?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : note

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 2:26 PM Oliver has not replied

  
Oliver
Junior Member (Idle past 5159 days)
Posts: 16
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Joined: 02-04-2007


Message 177 of 200 (382404)
02-04-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Chiroptera
02-04-2007 2:35 PM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science -- This is the topic
That is your worldview chiroptera but I certainly don't subscribe to it. It is very easy and convenient to accept Evolution in a world that does not want a God, that's the short of it but since we cannot prove Gods existence or non-existence I must mention that when I see the beauty in this world in contrast to the suffering of creatures and mankind I admit that I have to believe in God. Scientists can theorise, hypothesize and extrapolate but man inherently makes mistakes, who would doubt that? Now who am I to question Evolution when I have aboslutely no qualifications on the matter, on the other hand Evolution is neither fact since we absolutely cannot know for sure, regardless of ones knowledge on the subject. Those 'millions' of years are impossible to account for and we don't even know how it is that we are living on this planet but please, Evolution is not Scientific fact! That I know for sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Chiroptera, posted 02-04-2007 2:35 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Chiroptera, posted 02-04-2007 3:03 PM Oliver has not replied
 Message 183 by jar, posted 02-04-2007 4:51 PM Oliver has not replied
 Message 184 by Chiroptera, posted 02-04-2007 7:39 PM Oliver has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 200 (382405)
02-04-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Oliver
02-04-2007 2:26 PM


quote:
...I may move on sometime.
Well, when you do move on, I invite you to move onto some of the other threads, where it might be fruitful to discuss some of your other claims.

This world can take my money and time/ But it sure can't take my soul. -- Joe Ely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 2:26 PM Oliver has not replied

  
Oliver
Junior Member (Idle past 5159 days)
Posts: 16
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Joined: 02-04-2007


Message 179 of 200 (382406)
02-04-2007 2:57 PM


I'm off now, back soon!
I've enjoyed the forum

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 200 (382408)
02-04-2007 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Oliver
02-04-2007 2:55 PM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science -- This is the topic
quote:
Those 'millions' of years are impossible to account for and we don't even know how it is that we are living on this planet but please, Evolution is not Scientific fact! That I know for sure.
Lots o' threads around here on how we can, in fact, account for those million of years, Oliver, if you are interesting in finding out how. The secret is that the past leaves evidence in the present, and not all possible pasts are consistent with what we know about the present. Go into the Geology Forum, for example, and you will find out why we know, as a fact, that there was no global flood just a few thousand years ago. If there was, it would have left pretty definite traces, but the expected traces have never been found.
If you have more to say about what makes something scientific vs. not scientific, then this is the thread for it. Otherwise, we have a lot of folks around here who would like the chance to discuss these other issues with you (or anyone else, for that matter).
Wonderful place, this board. Be carefull. It can get addicting.

This world can take my money and time/ But it sure can't take my soul. -- Joe Ely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 2:55 PM Oliver has not replied

  
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