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Author Topic:   Scientific Fact versus Interpretation
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 144 (295744)
03-15-2006 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by LinearAq
03-15-2006 9:21 PM


Re: conjecture vs simplified description
Well, tell me how you plan to test the conjecture that a certain rock formation was created in a certain kind of environment. You can show how the conjecture was arrived at, but you can't test it to see if it's true.
Or tell me how you plan to test the conjecture that a certain layer of the geo column represents a particular time period that lasted however many millions of years, and was characterized by a certain kind of sedimentary "landscape" and a certain kind of animal and plant life. Again, you can show how the conjecture was thought up, but you can't test it to see if it's true.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-15-2006 09:44 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by LinearAq, posted 03-15-2006 9:21 PM LinearAq has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 144 (295747)
03-15-2006 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
03-15-2006 9:34 PM


Re: Finally something that can be tested.
It would be nice if that was just a layer of coal that was found everywhere, but it's not. And it's not even one layer. And fortunately, it's also something that we can date, and it lasts for something more than one year. And the layers are separated by neat things that take lots of time to form like limestone, sandstone and shale and pretty clear that there was NOT one event that laid them down.
If you want, once we finish the Grand Caynon from the bottom up we can start a thread on the Carboniferous Period, where we can deal with it layer by layer as well.
Sorry, but there is NO support for a global flood in the Carboniferous.
Would you enjoy a layer by layer look at the Carboniferous?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 9:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Ratel, posted 03-15-2006 10:19 PM jar has replied
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 10:26 PM jar has replied

  
Ratel
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 144 (295756)
03-15-2006 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
03-15-2006 9:48 PM


Re: Finally something that can be tested.
Hypothetically speaking, couldn't a flood theorist postulate swirling pockets of uprooted vegetation being deposited in chunks here and there, rather than an evenly distributed global layer of coal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 03-15-2006 9:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 10:27 PM Ratel has replied
 Message 66 by jar, posted 03-15-2006 10:28 PM Ratel has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 64 of 144 (295760)
03-15-2006 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
03-15-2006 9:48 PM


Nope, you proved the Flood for me
Flood theory doesn't need a single layer. Single, multiple, anything is possible from the Flood. Many layers at different depths are quite a reasonable possibility from the flood.
So you keep proving the Flood!!
The limestone and sandstone were simply transported and deposited by the Flood in sedimentary form. They hardened after the Flood of course. No problem whatever with this fact.
The time factor is of course just an evo pipe dream.
Your scenario proves the Flood. Nice going!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 03-15-2006 9:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 03-15-2006 10:30 PM Faith has replied
 Message 81 by Modulous, posted 03-16-2006 2:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 65 of 144 (295761)
03-15-2006 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Ratel
03-15-2006 10:19 PM


Re: Finally something that can be tested.
Yes, that is a possibility too. Thank you Ratel. You're starting to grow on me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Ratel, posted 03-15-2006 10:19 PM Ratel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Ratel, posted 03-15-2006 10:58 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 144 (295762)
03-15-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Ratel
03-15-2006 10:19 PM


Re: Finally something that can be tested.
They can make up any scenario they want, and do.
What is needed are some specific predictions that can then be tested.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Ratel, posted 03-15-2006 10:19 PM Ratel has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 10:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 144 (295763)
03-15-2006 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
03-15-2006 10:26 PM


Re: Nope, you proved the Flood for me
Would you like to step through the layers and evidence one layer at a time and see if it makes sense?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 10:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 10:31 PM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 68 of 144 (295764)
03-15-2006 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
03-15-2006 10:28 PM


Re: Finally something that can be tested.
They can make up any scenario they want, and do.
What is needed are some specific predictions that can then be tested.
But JAR, a specific prediction has been made and tested and PASSED. It was your proposition that there should be a single layer of coal and it merely turns out there's more than one, which is even better for the Flood.
The FLOOD PASSES JAR'S TEST!!!!
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-15-2006 10:32 PM

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 Message 66 by jar, posted 03-15-2006 10:28 PM jar has replied

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 Message 70 by jar, posted 03-15-2006 10:33 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 69 of 144 (295766)
03-15-2006 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
03-15-2006 10:30 PM


Re: Nope, you proved the Flood for me
Would you like to step through the layers and evidence one layer at a time and see if it makes sense?
You already showed it makes sense!! A layer of COAL you said. Well, it EXISTS!! MORE than one even, a WEALTH of evidence for the Flood.
Further investigation would be off topic here, I'm afraid, but I'll be watching the GC thread for a discussion of the Carboniferous.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-15-2006 10:37 PM

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 144 (295767)
03-15-2006 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
03-15-2006 10:30 PM


Re: Finally something that can be tested.
Would you like to put it to the test and step through the layers one at a time and see if your figment can stand up to the evidence?
If so, once we finsh with the Grand Canyon we can move on to your next project.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 10:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 10:35 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 71 of 144 (295768)
03-15-2006 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by jar
03-15-2006 10:33 PM


Re: Finally something that can be tested.
Would you like to put it to the test and step through the layers one at a time and see if your figment can stand up to the evidence?
Now now JAR, you know that by your OWN test the Flood PASSED. Now you want to make up some stuff to prove your own test wrong because it passed. Tch tch, just admit the Flood SCORED!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by jar, posted 03-15-2006 10:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 03-15-2006 10:38 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 144 (295770)
03-15-2006 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
03-15-2006 10:35 PM


Re: Finally something that can be tested.
Faith, I will happily move through layers with you in another thread. Once we finish the Grand Canyon we can start a thread on the Carboniferous Period. But no, the Flood never happened Faith and there is no evidence anywhere to support such a myth.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 10:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 10:47 PM jar has not replied
 Message 89 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 10:34 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 144 (295774)
03-15-2006 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
03-15-2006 10:38 PM


Ach, admit it jar, just give up already
You just helped me establish this evidence you claim is nonexistent, dear Jar. Thank you.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-15-2006 10:49 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 03-15-2006 10:38 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Percy, posted 03-17-2006 12:05 PM Faith has replied

  
Ratel
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 144 (295778)
03-15-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
03-15-2006 10:27 PM


Here's an issue both sides can interpret
Well, thanks, Faith, I'm just trying to anticipate alternative scenarios.
Regarding the issue of interpretation, I think I have an issue/question that appears, to my layman's thinking, problematic for both camps, so if any wish to take a stab at it...
I have a dinosaur book that contains a photograph of a huge cliff in the Andes composed of vertical layers of stone- in other words, they were lain down horizontally and then set on end by mountains folding. You can see multiple tiers of rock exposed one over the other, and each of these tiers has ripples in it, different patterns and sizes of ripples going in one direction and the other. There are dinosaur footprints in the stone, one stone layer has a set of footprints, and another layer has footprints. The official explanation is that this was an ancient beach.
So here's my question for the conventional geologists- how was each successive layer, with all the intricate footprint patterns and ripples, preserved when the next layer was lain over it? Wouldn't it have to harden before the next layer of sand was deposited or be wiped out? Is this sort of phenomenon observed anywhere in the world today?
For the flood theorists, the same question- how were the delicate ripple patterns preserved intact during a violent flood, not once but many times? And the big one, how could dinosaur footprints be made on one layer of sand, then covered over and then another set made on the next layer, if the layers were made by the flood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 10:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by roxrkool, posted 03-15-2006 11:16 PM Ratel has replied
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 03-15-2006 11:23 PM Ratel has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 75 of 144 (295786)
03-15-2006 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Ratel
03-15-2006 10:58 PM


Re: Here's an issue both sides can interpret
So here's my question for the conventional geologists- how was each successive layer, with all the intricate footprint patterns and ripples, preserved when the next layer was lain over it? Wouldn't it have to harden before the next layer of sand was deposited or be wiped out? Is this sort of phenomenon observed anywhere in the world today?
Think about how easily sand can be made into sand castles by just adding a little water. Desert environments appear to be dry, but can have quite a bit of moisture in the early morning air. And obviously, sand and silt in the marine environment is invariably moist, so suddenly a windstorm blows sediment into a shallow pond/creek/calm ocean/lagoon with ripples on the bottom and soon the ripples are covered in a cm thick layer of silt. And viola! Preserved ripples.
Same basic processes for fossil track preservation.
This is just one of several preservation processes, however.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Ratel, posted 03-15-2006 10:58 PM Ratel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Ratel, posted 03-15-2006 11:48 PM roxrkool has replied

  
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