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Author Topic:   Is science a religion?
jar
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From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 6 of 295 (290702)
02-26-2006 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by subbie
02-26-2006 5:44 PM


Is there any compelling reason to exclude the supernatural
Is there any compelling reason to exclude the supernatural from the scope of scientific inquiry?
Certainly. If it's scientificly testable then it's no longer supernatural.
Is science a religion because it refuses to even consider the idea that non-naturalistic processes are at work in the world?
Nope. First science doesn't say that non-naturalistic processes are not at work in the world. What science says is "If it ain't natural we don't have anyway to test it."
Now if someone comes along with a way to test the untestable, then a whole new paradigm opens.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 1 by subbie, posted 02-26-2006 5:44 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 15 of 295 (290740)
02-26-2006 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by subbie
02-26-2006 7:07 PM


Re: Is there any compelling reason to exclude the supernatural
Well, several folk have given pretty good answers, but let me add my spin.
First, no, I would not consider that supernatural.
Second, no one has even been able to show ANY supernatural talents that reliably. Many have claimed such things but so far absolutely none of the alleged supernatural happenings has stood up to examintion.
Third, not knowing is not the same as supernatural.
And finally, every single alleged instance of supernatural, when the cause is determined, has turned out to be very natural in origin.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 62 of 295 (295962)
03-16-2006 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by 2ice_baked_taters
03-16-2006 11:37 AM


Re: Requirements of religion
Religions believe, to the best of my knowlegde, that all answers are found in or through thier deity. That through this deity they will come to know truth and be enlightened.
Perhaps some religions believe that. Many do not. For example, as a Christian I believe I can learn about Faith, about morals, abou how I should behave from GOD. But I don't expect to learn history or engineering or aesthetics or physics or math or language or the laws of my area or how to dress or how to drive a car or which foods to eat from the diety.
If you believe science explains everything it has become your deity.
But so far you seem to be the only one saying that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 55 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 03-16-2006 11:37 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 65 of 295 (295976)
03-16-2006 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by 2ice_baked_taters
03-16-2006 2:08 PM


Re: Requirements of religion
Yes...this is what you believe then?
So...if this is what you believe..what gave you the tools?
what gave you the medium through which to explore?
What gave you the power of choice?
What gave you the ability to think?
Every time you use these you are finding answers through God.
It depends upon the perspective.
This brings into question what your definition of GOD is.
I am curious what your perspective is.
I don't have a clue what you are asking there. Sorry but I can't answer questions that seem to have no meaning.
Yes....many are avoiding the topic aren't they? Perhaps they are on the fence.
A straight foreward yes or no, or, yes and no, with an explanation is all that is required. Then discussion follows
So far all you've gotten it seems are nos.
The big thing I've seen so far is absolutely no discussion of the initial question, "Is science a religion"
That is of course, an absurd question on its face. How can you have a religion that has as its basic premise "All that we know is held tentatively, is likely wrong and will certainly change in the future"?
The question of whether Science is a religion can be answered very simply. No it is not.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 67 of 295 (295983)
03-16-2006 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by subbie
03-16-2006 2:26 PM


Re: "Is science a religion?"
If there are supernatural forces at work in the world, can science investigate them, or does science begin with the a priori assumption that there is no supernatural?
Two questions there, both can be answered by "No."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 72 of 295 (296044)
03-16-2006 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by subbie
03-16-2006 3:11 PM


Re: "Is science a religion?"
Why can science not investigate the supernatural?
Because if it was subject to testing it would not be supernatural, but natural.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by subbie, posted 03-16-2006 3:11 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by subbie, posted 03-16-2006 7:27 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 74 of 295 (296078)
03-16-2006 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by subbie
03-16-2006 7:27 PM


Re: "Is science a religion?"
Perhaps something supernatural is beyond our ability to fully understand, but why could science not investigate the evidence left behind a supernatural event to try to determine what can be learned, even if nothing more than verfiy that what happened was indeed supernatural?
Huh?
You cannot verfiy that what happened was indeed supernatural? All you can do is say that the cause is uknown. If you can verify the cause, then the cause is not supernatural.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 159 of 295 (311200)
05-11-2006 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by brianforbes
05-11-2006 9:04 PM


Re: You chose your religion
Why is it that EVERY major US Christian Church supports teaching the TOE and opposes teach Biblical Creationism. Why is it over 10,000 US Christian Clergy signed an open letter supporting the TOE? Why do Christian Clergy subscribe to:
We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children.
Not only do your posts show you don't have a clue about the TOE, they show you don't even have a clue about Christianity or Theology.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by brianforbes, posted 05-11-2006 9:04 PM brianforbes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by brianforbes, posted 05-11-2006 9:35 PM jar has replied
 Message 180 by ramoss, posted 05-12-2006 8:47 AM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 170 of 295 (311226)
05-11-2006 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by brianforbes
05-11-2006 9:35 PM


Re: You chose your religion
I'm sure you'll find those same churches say something to the effect that being gay is not condemned in the bible.
Totally off topic and the classic Gish Gallop tactic of the typical creo. When faced with evidence that totally refutes their position the creos throw the plate of spaghetti on the ceiling and see what sticks.
I'm sure your figure of EVERY major church supporting it is quite accurate.
Yup, it is. Facts is facts. Science is not a religion. It's called "solid, undisputed evidence."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 162 by brianforbes, posted 05-11-2006 9:35 PM brianforbes has replied

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 181 of 295 (311361)
05-12-2006 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by ramoss
05-12-2006 8:47 AM


The Clergy Project.
I assume that you mean a link to the Clergy Project.
There is also the Christian Alliance for Progress.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 230 of 295 (311782)
05-14-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by brianforbes
05-14-2006 3:24 PM


brainforbes sums up Biblical Creationist thinking.
I don't care if I've been "lied to".
It's pretty obvious that many other Christian Biblical Creationists feel the same. Looking at the Biblical Creationist websites it looks like Lying for Jesus is the prefered tactic.
In case you didn't notice, I'm not using the evidence you all use to determine the truth of evolution. I come at it using a different method.
We noticed. It's called wilfull ignorance. It's when you wilfully ignore all the evidence that does not support your desired point of view.
A good 3/4 of what I've written was not told to me by anyone, at least not that I remember. I made it up.
Again, pretty normal for Biblical Creationists. They make it up. They have to. As you say:
It's common sense! It's not that I couldn't use the evidence you all use, but I've admitted over and over that if I did, this debate would be lost.
It is common sense. If the Biblical Creationists accepted the evidence that is there, overwhelmingly there, they would have to admit that Biblical Creationism is simply a perversion of Christianity.
The best I can do is assert that the evidence is skewed in light of what believing the evidence would mean.
Yes, exactly. Wilfull Ignorance.
BUT...
remember that you do not have to abandon Christianity, only the liars.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 269 of 295 (314031)
05-20-2006 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by MrEd
05-20-2006 10:35 PM


Just more PRATTs
Ed, most of your posts, in addition to just being PRATTs have nothing to do with this thread.
The only point of this thread is the simple question, "Is science a religion". In addition, since it is on the science side, bringing in old myths about floods or gods or the other stuff has no bearing or value.
If you think science is a religion, then you will need to bring in verifiable evidence to support your position. Myths are just myths. PRATTs are just PRATTs.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by MrEd, posted 05-20-2006 10:35 PM MrEd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by MrEd, posted 05-20-2006 10:59 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 274 of 295 (314038)
05-20-2006 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by MrEd
05-20-2006 10:59 PM


Re: Just more PRATTs
Actually, no, I'm a Creationist. One who is willing to explore how GOD really did it, and the answer is not the myths in the Bible.
But the total bankruptcy of Biblical Creationism, the outright lies of the supporters of ID at Dover, the continued wilfull ignorance of those who support Biblical Creationsism are not the topic of this thread.
This thread is about "Is science a religion" and is in the science forums. Here you are expected to do more than just bring in nonsense allegations from AIG or ICR. You are expected to provided evidence related to the question, something you have totally failed to do.
Deal with the topic. We can discuss the absurdity of Biblical Creationists in the apporpriate thread.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by MrEd, posted 05-20-2006 10:59 PM MrEd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by MrEd, posted 05-20-2006 11:14 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 276 of 295 (314043)
05-20-2006 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by MrEd
05-20-2006 11:14 PM


Re: Just more PRATTs
Ok, smarty-pants. Provide "evidence" that the "so-called" allegations from AIG or ICR are "nonsense"?
I already explained to you that this is not the thread to go over PRATTs.
This thread is on "Is science a religion". We await your evidence related to that question.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by MrEd, posted 05-20-2006 11:14 PM MrEd has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 292 of 295 (314140)
05-21-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by subbie
05-21-2006 11:44 AM


Re: A late attempt to get this thread back on topic
subbie asks:
Why? Why would science be doomed to ignore magic if it really existed? If magic worked through means outside the nautral world, science might not be able to study those means, but if magic left behind artifacts sufficient to prove that magic was in fact at work, why couldn't science study at least that much of it?
If magic left behind artifacts sufficient to prove that magic was in fact at work, then science would likely study it. In fact, that happens quite often, James Randi has made a very good living off it.
What has been seen so far though is that every time magic has been claimed and the incident studyied, the results have turned out to be non-supernatural. If you come to something that cannot be explained, then the answer is "I don't know what caused it", not "God caused it".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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