Is there such a thing as chance?

Show me where it says no to wine please.

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Show me where it says no to wine please.

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okWine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whoever is deceived by it is not wise Proverbs 20:1Look not upon wine .........it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder Proverbs 23:31,32Neither fornicators...nor drunkards....shall inherit the kingdom of God 1 Cor.6:9,10Use a concordance to cross-reference on the subject.
It would be logical that this is an unhealthful habit, and not conducive to clear thinking......whatsoever a man sows, he shall also reap. Gal 6:7
Makes sense?

Or the will and ability of organisms to overcome their surroundings. SO if it affects you badly then it was abuse, but if it doesn't then you are home free? Isn't that a bit of an unuseable standard?Do you notice that the concept of free will opposes the concept of {original sin \ sins of the father}

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

They might do that by design. Basically the standard lies within you. The Holy Spirit convicts you, not me, or some standard. Everyone knows when they are doing wrong, for God wrote his laws on the minds and hearts of everyone. In that we have no choice but to be born into it?Without it we have no free will, there would be nothing to choose, everything would be good then, and I think we would be like fruitcakes.Paul realizes this struggle in Romans, and elaborates on it.

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Do you notice that the concept of free will opposes the concept of {original sin \ sins of the father}

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In what way are they opposite?Sins of the fathers are visited upon the children for generations - health-wise, finance-wise, social-standing-wise, and otherwise.I can do much to extricate from this 'curse', exercising choice, which is free will.We are very much so subject to the choices our parents make, with or without religion.

Indeed, in fact the religious factors such as 'sin' seem entirely redundant concepts here.No matter what the moral state of your father his health, poverty, class and other factors may well have an effect on your upbringing. How much the simple exercise of free-will is able to alleviate these effects is debatable.TTFN,WK

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Indeed, in fact the religious factors such as 'sin' seem entirely redundant concepts here.

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That would be an entirely personal observation.

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No matter what the moral state of your father his health, poverty, class and other factors may well have an effect on your upbringing. How much the simple exercise of free-will is able to alleviate these effects is debatable.

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Yes, indeed. One would correctly argue that genetics are present to stay. But one can free oneself of poverty, etc., through effort.What is TTFN?Truly troubling foolish nitwit?

Ta Ta For Now (a british thing)

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Ta Ta For Now (a british thing)

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Blow me away.......an American thing Thanks, Ned. You're downright upright.Are there any Canadian things?

Eh? Canadian thing? I don't know, eh.This message has been edited by NosyNed, 01-21-2005 15:27 AM

I'd forgotten that this is Canadian, even tho I use it all the time.See how people are? Borrow and forget to bring it back. Oh, Canada.....I love it there.

Not opposites, just opposing concepts: one says you can choose, the other say, sorry somebody else made that decision.

But you just said you didn’t know you were abusing your body until later. No, in that a decision by your {parent\grandparent\etc} has taken your ability to decide away by their behavior. But the surroundings are designed as well ....

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Not opposites, just opposing concepts: one says you can choose, the other say, sorry somebody else made that decision.

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Do you mean 'opposing' as in conflicting?No need to answer.
Thank you.

No, I said it wasn't clear to me. That was due to all the deception and self denial. Once you clear your mind and open your spirit, and accept what you were told for years, you can then see how true it actually is.You see, I wasn't a drunk, or an abusive person or, anything severe like that, so it really was a borderline thing. We damage ourselves and explain it away. We do that with so much of our lives. We cannot fully see what we are doing until we experience the truth, the light, the cleansing of the blood of Jesus, through the Holy Spirit. Then our spirit grows.Try to understand, I wasn't hitting rock bottom or anything like that, I have a wonderful family with 5 kids, my own home on a lake, my own successful business. Yet my mind was clouded, decieved, full of the tools to self decieve myself, even though deep down inside I knew it was wrong. That is correct. You are confusing 2 separate things though. We have no choice that we are born into sin. As a child you are not held accountable for anything, until you have the understanding. When this happens, is specific to each of us. There are things we do in our lives, and without any teaching of right or wrong, we instantly know they are wrong. That is God.Your free will happens when you choose between doing the wrong thing, or the right thing. Nothing in life, no choice can be made without it relating to good or bad. There is no in-between. Everything was designed, didn't you know that?