Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Religious Nature of Evolution, or Lack Thereof
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 212 (110265)
05-25-2004 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Chiroptera
05-24-2004 8:58 PM


The theory of evolution does directly or indirectly answer these questions. The truth is for evolutionists that man by himself can determine truth. Independent of a creator, independant of absolutes. And as for purpose well their is no purpose we are an accident and just another evolved animal. So you see evolution does answer the questions. Just because there is no absolutes and no purpose does not mean evolution gives no answer to these questions. When man accepts the theory of evolution he builds his thinking (his religion)upon this theory that there is no god and i can determine my own destiny, rules , and purpose. Which is what many anti-god, athiest, humanist, evolutionists etc have done. So it does qualify as a religion. just as much as buddism, new age, and all other religions of the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Chiroptera, posted 05-24-2004 8:58 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 05-25-2004 12:29 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 78 by crashfrog, posted 05-25-2004 2:11 AM almeyda has replied
 Message 89 by Chiroptera, posted 05-26-2004 12:41 PM almeyda has not replied

  
Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 212 (110270)
05-25-2004 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by almeyda
05-25-2004 12:02 AM


How about we stop playing the assertion game and start supporting claims with evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by almeyda, posted 05-25-2004 12:02 AM almeyda has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 78 of 212 (110293)
05-25-2004 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by almeyda
05-25-2004 12:02 AM


When man accepts the theory of evolution he builds his thinking (his religion)upon this theory that there is no god and i can determine my own destiny, rules , and purpose.
Says you, but the existence of Christians who accept evolution - the majority of Christians, as I recall - would seem to prove you wrong.
They're still basing their morality on what they believe God wants, after all. Clearly evolution doesn't conflict with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by almeyda, posted 05-25-2004 12:02 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by almeyda, posted 05-25-2004 3:22 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 212 (110316)
05-25-2004 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by crashfrog
05-25-2004 2:11 AM


Ok ive decided to make my next topic on theistic evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by crashfrog, posted 05-25-2004 2:11 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5224 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 80 of 212 (110329)
05-25-2004 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by almeyda
05-24-2004 11:50 PM


Almeyda,
Your age of rocks is not accurate as much as you want it to be. All it is is a bunch of numbers calculating pretending to be able to mark an age of millions of yrs. This is not true. There is no such dating method without adding your own opinion to the fact that can add a date of millions/billions of yrs.
Where are the calculations propped up by "my opinion", & my opinion alone?
This is the hand wavey I-refuse-to-address-the-evidence tosh we expect from creationists. It is clearly not my biased unsupported "opinion" that multiple dating methods corroborate the date of the K-T tektites, it is a raw FACT. THE MATHS SHOWS THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCH CORROBORATION TO BE OVER 70,000,000 : 1 AGAINST!
Tell, me, please, what conclusions should I be drawing from multiple lines of evidence that say the same thing? Should I hold my bible aloft, as you do, & just try & pretend it doesn't exist, or should I do the intellectually honest thing & accept it for what it is; powerful corroboration that the K-T boundary is 65 million years old?
To scupper the evidence you need to explain why the correlation exists. This involves directly addressing the issue rather than making ridiculous accusations that mere opinion is involved. If you can't, then you need to accept that it exists. This is not evidence that can be interpreted any other way. It supports the mainstream scientific view of the world & scuppers a young earth. Let me remind you there isn't a scrap of evidence that specifically supports the biblical 6,000 year old earth, yet there are many correlations like the K-T tektite example I've given you that support the mainstream view. There is precious little evidence that can be interpreted either way like you wish.
I dont have anything to add to your link question. I disagree because i believe historical science is very different to practical science. You however believe they are on the same wave length
You are moving the goalposts. Point C/ was not about the difference between historical & practical science, but the relative tentativity of hypotheses regarding the amount of evidence that supports them. Allow me to remind you.
mark writes:
C/ Nothing in science is "proven", assuming a definition of the word that involves absolute 100% surety on a given theory. All scientific hypotheses are tentative to one degree or another. A new hypothesis is highly tentative, the more predictictions that are borne out, that is, the more evidence it has in its favour, reduces the tentativity of that hypothesis. In highly supported hypotheses, which are known as theories (although the terms are interchangeable even in scietific circles, depending on context) the level of evidential support is high enough to render the theory so well supported that to withhold consent can be considered unreasonable. This is what is known as a scientific fact. In no way do evolutionists, or scientists in general, attempt to conflate a scientific fact with a definition that confers 100% knowledge.
Any example you can give I can question. If I can throw any doubt at all on your example then it can't be 100% proven, by definition. I've already done this to examples you have given, in fact they were excellent examples of what I mean.
The scientific method does not differentiate between historical & practical sciences. The methodology is the same.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by almeyda, posted 05-24-2004 11:50 PM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by almeyda, posted 05-28-2004 12:04 AM mark24 has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1508 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 81 of 212 (110330)
05-25-2004 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
05-16-2004 12:32 AM


quote:
The point is that religion necessarily involves details about the supernatural
What about scientology?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 05-16-2004 12:32 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 05-25-2004 5:44 AM Peter has replied
 Message 84 by jar, posted 05-25-2004 11:12 AM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1508 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 82 of 212 (110333)
05-25-2004 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by NosyNed
05-22-2004 2:33 PM


Re: Do you try to get it wrong?
quote:
"over billions of years"
Where did you get the idea that any one think that the origin of life took billions of years? This is simply wrong.
1 - 1.5 billion maybe ....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by NosyNed, posted 05-22-2004 2:33 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by NosyNed, posted 05-25-2004 12:02 PM Peter has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 83 of 212 (110334)
05-25-2004 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Peter
05-25-2004 5:19 AM


What about scientology?
Using galvanic skin resistance sensors to awaken the psychic potential left in all of us by an ancient race of alien spirit beings?
Yeah, that sounds pretty fuckin' supernatural to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Peter, posted 05-25-2004 5:19 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Peter, posted 05-26-2004 5:55 AM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 212 (110396)
05-25-2004 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Peter
05-25-2004 5:19 AM


I remember reading
many, many years ago, and article by Ron Hubbard talking about creating a religion for pure financial reasons. IIRC, it was in the old Analog or F&SF. This was before he created Scientology. In the article he descibed just how easy it would be to create such a critter and what would be needed to make it work.
Mayhaps he succeeded.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Peter, posted 05-25-2004 5:19 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Peter, posted 05-26-2004 5:57 AM jar has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 85 of 212 (110407)
05-25-2004 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Peter
05-25-2004 5:39 AM


Off topic
And probably wrong (but not fully settled)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Peter, posted 05-25-2004 5:39 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Peter, posted 01-26-2011 7:22 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1508 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 86 of 212 (110597)
05-26-2004 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by crashfrog
05-25-2004 5:44 AM


OK ... borderline, in that the religion itself doesn't
claim 'supernatural agency' but 'highly advanced agency'.
Hmm .... that sounds like IDer thinking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 05-25-2004 5:44 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by crashfrog, posted 05-26-2004 8:44 AM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1508 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 87 of 212 (110598)
05-26-2004 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
05-25-2004 11:12 AM


Re: I remember reading
I thought all religions were created for financial
reasons ....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 05-25-2004 11:12 AM jar has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 88 of 212 (110630)
05-26-2004 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Peter
05-26-2004 5:55 AM


Just as a hypothetical excercise to explore an idea...
Alien 1 has phenomenal psychic powers that enable him to move objects with his mind.
Alien 2 has phenomenal technology that allows him to interface mentally with an indetectable magnetic field projector and basically, move objects with his mind.
Short of an autopsy is there any way to tell the difference?
By the strictest definition, any power that you can take advantage of and interact with can't be supernatural - the supernatural can't affect the natural or it ceases to be supernatural. So neither alien has supernatural powers.
By a loose definition, any power you can use that defies understanding is supernatural. So both the biological power and the technological power are supernatural.
I bring this up simply to point out that trying to pin down what fictional abilities constitute supernatural and what do not is rather tricky. To me, aliens with advanced, incomprehnsible powers are supernatural, because they're trans-mundane.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Peter, posted 05-26-2004 5:55 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Peter, posted 01-26-2011 7:14 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 212 (110678)
05-26-2004 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by almeyda
05-25-2004 12:02 AM


quote:
The truth is for evolutionists that man by himself can determine truth.
No, neither evolution nor science deals with "truth". All it attempts to do is to use available data to try to answer questions about the physical world we see, knowing full well that the answers we get might be wrong. You admit, youself, that ideas and hypotheses in evolutionary theory have changed over time, as new data have come to light.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by almeyda, posted 05-25-2004 12:02 AM almeyda has not replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 212 (110761)
05-26-2004 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by AdminNosy
05-23-2004 11:17 PM


Re: Welcome
I have re-read the forum guidelines but am unsure of where I may have stepped over the line. Do not want to violate the rules or step on any toes here so any help or advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by AdminNosy, posted 05-23-2004 11:17 PM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by AdminNosy, posted 05-26-2004 9:32 PM DarkStar has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024