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Author Topic:   A Working Definition of God
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1356 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 286 of 332 (201690)
04-24-2005 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by paisano
04-24-2005 10:38 AM


Re: NO physical evidence for the miracles
I wonder if M.D. is an ex-evangelical convert to Catholicism, his style of argument and use of terminology is somewhat suggestive of this.
This is exactly correct. I was formerly a conservative Lutheran before I became Catholic. This was around 5 years ago that I was confirmed Catholic.
Consequently, although I had already come to the conclusion that Lutheranism was in error in regards to some things (such as Sola Scriptura, the Imaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary) I still remember very good Catholics taking the time to patiently discuss things with me that lead me to my conversion.
In fact, has they not been so patient with my questions, I would probably not have converted.
People can appraoch the whole dialectic from many perspectives. I know personally that the Catholic faith is the best faith and is accurate to the highest level attainable. However, being unsympathetic toward others usualy only causes further divisions.
I can still remember what it was like to hold certain views that I formerly had been taught and now feel are wrong. I hope that I will never forget what it was like so that I may always be willing to discuss these things with other non-Catholics and bring a better understanding as the Spirit leads me.
Bear in mind, too, that sympathy does not imply agreement. St. Anastasius was sympathetic toward the Arian heretics in his own time. Yet he had no desire to convert to their ideas. Neither did he have any desire to defend their doctrine.
Although it is debatable that St. Anastasius actually wrote the Anastasian Creed himself, I'm sure that his discourse with the Arians strongly influenced the development of the Creed. In fact, it probably would not have been developed so well if he hadn't engaged in a dialogue with them in order to further clarify our Catholic definition of the Trinity in contrast to the Arian heresy.
Just sayin.
Edit: I am curious as to why my style reminds you of me being an ex-evangelical.
When talking about Adam and Eve, I pointed toward Catholic sources such as The Catechism of the Catholic Church or other various Catholic on-line resourses. I am currently looking more deeply through Church tradition to understand the position more clearly.
When talking about "primitive monotheism", I pointed toward the work of the fellow Catholic Wilhelm Schmidt. I specially mentioned portions and conclusions of his work which were essentially approved by Catholic teachings. The concept flows naturally into the semina verbi (seeds of the word) which is a distincly Catholic doctrine.
When talking about the possibility of those outside the Chruch nonetheless having a part in Christ's salvation -- I once again outlined the precise Catholic doctine via reference to Cardinal Arinze, who himself was considered a high contender for the papacy right alongside the now Pope Benedict XVI.
One might also note that many of my Scriptural quotations were from the Book of James, a book which caused Luther great consternation because he felt it strongly opposed his belief in "Salvation by Faith Alone". In Luther's opinion, the book should have been removed from the Cannon altogether.
I guess I'm a little bit confused as to why you could see this.
This message has been edited by Magisterium Devolver, 04-24-2005 10:32 AM
This message has been edited by Magisterium Devolver, 04-24-2005 11:33 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by paisano, posted 04-24-2005 10:38 AM paisano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by paisano, posted 04-24-2005 12:40 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1356 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 287 of 332 (201693)
04-24-2005 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Percy
04-24-2005 11:07 AM


Re: The evidence is NOT physical
The evidence from the OT would appear to contradict Magesterium Devolver's characterization of God as love, though this is the definition I like most, and since I don't take the OT literally I see no contradictions for myself.
And I'll willingly admit in advance that books, such as the Book of Joshua, readilly present a very real challenge to the concept that God is love. This is a good example of the cognitive dissonance that I mentioned before.
This message has been edited by Magisterium Devolver, 04-24-2005 10:45 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Percy, posted 04-24-2005 11:07 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 04-24-2005 2:06 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1356 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 288 of 332 (201698)
04-24-2005 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by paisano
04-23-2005 11:51 AM


Re: God of the Bible vs God of imagination
I don't think I can make it much clearer. The distinction is between the ensoulment and fall of two individuals from a population of fully modern homo sapiens...
And this is my thoughts on the matter.
...and the emergence of two fully modern homo sapiens , not yet ensouled or fallen, from a population of proto-human hominids, followed by ensoulment and fall.
Which, if I understood correctly, was essentially denounced by the Magisterium.
IMO either option is possible. You seem to think only the latter is, if I am understanding you correctly. I'm not seeing it, if we grant that Genesis uses figurative language to affirm a primeval historical event, which I thought we did.
Figurative language used within limits. I think we must be careful to not distort the meaning of the Scriptures to the point that it renders the original doctrine of original sin superfluous.
Consider the outline of Catholic thinking as relayed by Anthony Nevard B.Sc. in his article reproduced below:
FOR over a century, there has been controversy in the Church over the doctrine of Evolution. Though most Catholic theologians at first opposed it, they could not agree that the Magisterium had ever explicitly condemned the idea that the formation of the body of Adam might have involved some secondary natural causation, which some of the early Church Fathers believed, rather than by an immediate ex nihilo Divine Act.
Progressive theologians, despite some official discouragement, argued that this would allow for evolution to have occurred. Their increasing influence has led to the present widespread belief that even the Pope accepts Evolution as a fact, and the Church no longer opposes it. While some Catholics believe that Evolution does contradict Christian doctrine, others think it is purely a matter of personal opinion, or even believe it should be taught as the official Catholic position.
This article will consider these views in the light of the Church's reactions to evolutionism over this century, and also examine the rationale of a Catholic organisation in England which promotes a diametrically opposite theory of Origins to our own. While Daylight rejects Evolution as a false philosophy, dangerous to Christianity and damaging to society, and defends traditional doctrines, the FAITH Movement insists that Evolution must be accepted by the Church and seeks papal approval for a new theology of creation.
Yet both groups claim to respect the evidence of modern science, to be loyal to orthodox doctrines, and to oppose Humanist and Modernist influences. Both Daylight and FAITH believe they promote essential answers to contemporary problems in the Church and society at large, despite their mutually contradictory positions in matters related to Origins and Scripture. The leaders of FAITH maintain that their ideas are developed for the needs of the Church in a scientific world at this time of crisis in faith..."
But is it really in tune with the times to preach the evolutionist gospel despite the increasingly widespread apostasy against it by thousands of modern scientists? [1] Their recently published book provides an answer to this paradox their unshakeable conviction is actually based on a private revelation, as yet unapproved by the Church, claimed to have been received in 1929 by a laywoman, who heard 'voices from God' telling her that evolution was true!
Revolution to Evolution and back
Since the late nineteenth century, as the evolution doctrine became generally accepted in the academic community, more theologians began to contend that Catholics ought simply to accept evolution as a proven fact. They recalled that the Church had suffered in the past from being perceived as hostile to the progress of science - 'we dare not risk another Galileo case!' Dogmas, they argued, must be updated to meet the expectations of modern well-educated people, lest they reject Christianity as obscurantist and opposed to truth.
Though many great Christian scientists, such as Pasteur and Mendel, had rejected Darwinism, their opinions were treated as religiously biased, and so worthless as science. [2] Thus evolution could be portrayed as unanimously accepted by science and so became the prevailing secular dogma, to be adopted as an unquestioned principle in all disciplines of research, with any opponents routinely relegated to academic obscurity. This was inculcated by the publishing houses, the Press, education, and later radio and television, most effectively by the continued policy of excluding any authoritative opposition. [3]
Belief in Special Creation was considered anti-science, and ridiculed as on a par with astrology and 'flat Earthism.' [4] As some products of such social and cognitive conditioning entered the ranks of the clergy, their sincerely held convictions gradually influenced ecclesiastical circles and eroded traditional doctrinal beliefs, sapping the confidence of priests in defending the historical inerrancy of Holy Writ and the related doctrines of the Church.
Seminarians increasingly were merely told that Evolution was a proven fact, and not permitted freely to examine and discuss the scientific evidence and rational arguments for and against it. Their liberal professors could not allow these young men their pious faith in the literal sense of Genesis, written for 'primitive people'. Biologists, palaeontologists, Biblical exegetes, archaeologists, linguists, historians - all the experts were arrayed to oppose their common enemy: Biblical Fundamentalism! Students were encouraged to study theological works that argued that Christianity could be harmonised with modern Science..
Progressive Biblical scholars were 'demythologising' Genesis on the basis of belief in the evolutionary origins of mankind. Few students could have been equipped to challenge their professors in all these fields of expertise! Would-be literalists could readily be dismissed as adopting a Protestant attitude to the Scriptures, or ridiculed as ignorant of Science and modern scholarship. [5]
But the attempts of theologians to force the body of supernatural dogmatic truths of Christianity to fit the materialistic straitjacket of the evolution paradigm left profound contradictions unanswered, or required the twisting of a doctrine to the point of fracture. Several clerics in the past, working on the principle that Evolution was a proven fact, were disciplined by the Church, most famously and frequently Fr. Teilhard de Chardin. [6] Yet in recent decades, there has been a spate of books written by highly-credentialled scientists attacking the theory! [7]
Creationist publications, though excluded from secular bookshops and shunned by the media, can now quite easily be obtained by mail. [8] It can be shown that the growth of Evolutionism has borne deadly fruit both in the Church and society at large. [9] Consequently an increasing number of Catholics are no longer held in thrall by Darwin and his disciples, and have sought a rational alternative.
Catholic Creationism - a coherent resistance movement
Traditionalists believe that the Catholic Church has never given her official support to the Theory of Evolution because its principles and implications are opposed to the essential historical truths of the Genesis account of origins and the doctrines of Creation and Original Sin, which form the very foundations of the Faith. At the first Faith of our Fathers Conference, held in London on 4th May 1996, thirty-five Catholic organisations gathered in sharing in the proclamation of the authentic Catholic Faith. The only one stating a particular interest in science was described in the programme thus:
"The periodical Daylight claims to demonstrate that the traditional Catholic doctrines relating to Creation, Holy Scripture and origins are supported by the discoveries of modern scientific research". [10]
This approach welcomes the natural reading of the Word of God in the Bible, as interpreted by Christian Tradition and reason, subject to the Church's rulings and guidance. The word 'discoveries' above refers only to established scientific data, not to untestable materialistic hypotheses and naturalistic speculations falsely masqueraded as facts. Some Catholic experts, having closely examined both sides of the origins issue, have become convinced that the evolution model is not credible, and believe that recent Divine Creation is far more compatible with the fruits of modern research than the outworn arguments of atheists, blinkered by their anti-supernaturalistic bias. [11] Based on this conclusion, they have no need to attempt to harmonise evolution with Christian dogma by "theistic evolution's, which employs God as the Cause of the process.
The Catholic Church opposed to Darwinism
From the publication of Origin of Species in 1859, evolution was perceived as an attack on the Church. Historically, Darwinism served the anti-biblical speculations of a Victorian age taken up with a philosophy of scientism. It became adopted as the pseudoscientific basis of Marxism, Communism, laissez-faire Capitalism, Nazism and Secular Humanism. [12]
While Christ's enemies continue to use evolutionary propaganda to attack the Faith and moral teachings of the Church at their foundations, by destroying the rational basis of belief in the Creator and the credibility of the Bible, the theistic evolutionists attempt to weld their personal interpretation of Christianity to this godless materialistic hypothesis, and even consider their efforts an invaluable boon to the spread of the Gospel. Yet there have been many private and public decrees by Catholic authorities related to the implications of the theory of evolution since Darwin's day, and although it is true that none of these were in themselves ex cathedra dogmatic declarations, all of them have, in essence, been opposed to evolution.
In 1860, the provincial Council of Cologne declared:
"Our first parents were immediately made by God ... Hence, we declare openly opposed to Holy Scripture and to the Faith the opinion of those who go so far as to say that man, so far as his body is concerned, was produced by the spontaneous transformation of the less perfect into the more perfect, successively, ultimately ending in the human." (Til. IV, c.l4). [13]
Biologist Dr. Mivart wrote The Genesis of Species in 1871, in which he criticised Darwinism, but offered a modified evolutionary theory which accepted the creation of the human soul. Though severely criticised by Catholic writers, no action. was taken against it. [14]
In 1891, Pre M. D. Leroy, O.P., published a work entitled L'Evolution restreinte aux especes organiques. His theory resembled that of Mivart, but he took the view that Scripture does not exclude the idea of bodily evolution, and that the Fathers are not conclusive on this point. He argued that the Council of Cologne only excluded spontaneous evolution, reasoning thus: according to St. Thomas's principle, the form determines the matter, so that God had only to create a human soul and infuse it into an animal body for it to become human. No other Divine intervention would then be required.
In 1895, Rome ruled that his thesis "has been judged untenable, especially in so far as it concerns the body of man, being incompatible alike with the texts of Holy Scripture and with the principles of a sound philosophy." Leroy complied with orders to disavow and retract all he had published in favour of the theory, and to withdraw and forbid further sale of his book. [15]
In 1898, the Holy See's Congregation for the Index condemned Dr. John Zahm's book "Evolution and Dogma ". He believed that no compromise was possible between being evolutionist or creationist, and therefore proceeded to reinterpret the Fathers and Doctors of the Church to bring them into line with his evolutionary thinking. [16]
Other cases could also be cited that show that Catholic authorities at the turn of the century viewed the hypothesis of the evolution of the human body from animals as a rash and unproven novelty, especially in the light of the condemnations of Modernism emanating from Rome. The Holy See did not thereby explicitly condemn the theory by a public act, but did discourage it privately.
However, the decree of the Biblical Commission in 1909 reinforced the literal historical sense of the first three chapters of Genesis in regard to certain facts, including the special creation of man and the formation of the first woman from the first man. Some theologians nevertheless argued that what was special, or peculiar, was the mode of formation of Adam's body from the slime of the earth, which certainly implies pre-existing matter, and need not necessarily exclude an evolutionary origin.
Pre Hugueny, O.P., in his Critique et Catholique, published in 1914, remarks:
"The transformation of a purely animal organism into an organism capable of human life, by way of natural and progressive evolution, if it were proved, would not trouble the believer. The Bible and the Church teach us that God took from the earth the elements of the body of man, but they do not tell us if the formation of this body was instantaneous or whether the evolution of animal species gradually prepared the terrestrial elements in our nature for the special creation which introduced into the material world a spiritual soul, and which also gave to this matter, which was to be informed by this soul, the dispositions necessary for this higher degree of life." (Vol. I, 241-2.) [17]
In Evolution and Theology (1931), Dr. Ernest Messenger writes that theological manuals of the late 19th century stated that "evolution is theologically untrue, philosophically absurd, and so on." However, as less intolerant opinions have since been set forth by other authors without ecclesiastical interference, he concludes that the avoidance by the Holy See of explicit condemnation of the doctrine of human evolution showed that its discussion had been judged inopportune rather than theologically erroneous. [18] He considered the scientific evidence sufficient to establish
"the fact of, at any rate, some evolution, though opinions must necessarily differ as to the, mode. And from the theological point of view, we consider that evolution is the only reasonable way of harmonising our modern knowledge of the succession of geological epochs, with their flora and fauna, with the Scriptural statement that the earth produced all the present day-species. [19]
He argues that, although lacking conclusive proof, it is logical to believe that man also has evolved. In his view, "...Scripture neither teaches nor disproves the doctrine of the evolution of the human body." Several of the Church Fathers had taught that some part was played by secondary causes in the formation of man, while others held that Adam's body was formed entirely by a Divine creative Act. Their attitude "was at least in part a consequence of their physical and scientific theories." [20]
However, Scripture and Tradition leave no doubt that Eve took her origin from Adam by some means, and could thus not have been a separate product of evolution. Messenger speculates along the lines of some mode of special asexual propagation, though admitting he could not imagine how it could actually have happened. [21]
Regarding Adam, he reasons that there must have been Divine intervention at least in the creation and infusion of the rational soul, and the raising of body and soul to the supernatural state. It seems probable that a special Divine intervention was required "to give the embryonic body of Adam the last disposition required before animation by a human soul." [22] If nature alone could produce bodies fit for animation by human souls, why should it only happen once? And anyway it is a philosophic truth that a human soul could not exist in an animal body but only in a human one. The hypothesis of the existence of pre-Adamites who had died out before Adam seemed useful at the time to explain "many apparently imperfect types of humanity which recent archaeology has revealed." But why should God, in His Wisdom and Providence, have willed such races to useless lives leading to ultimate extinction, when: "The Creation was meant from the first to lead up to the formation of man ..." ? [23]
In conclusion, Dr. Messenger reminds us of the need for a Catholic to submit to Church authority in matters of doctrine, both in the interpretation of Scripture and of Tradition. He thought the modern theologians, most of whom then opposed evolution, mistaken, and believed that freedom of opinion and discussion were still allowable. He was also insistent that "The theologians do not form part of the teaching church... The teaching church consists of the hierarchy, in union with the Sovereign Pontiff." [24]
Theological opinions in the early 20th century
Some theologians continued to oppose evolution outright, including the eminent writer Cardinal Lepicier. In his book De Opere Sex Dierum in 1928, though he admitted the idea of spontaneous generation as a hypothesis, he maintained that "the evolution of species is impossible, even as a hypothesis... it openly contradicts the sacred text, and the universal opinion of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church." [25] However, Mgr. Janssens was one who allowed the possibility of plant or animal evolution as not in principle contrary to revelation, though seeing real problems in deriving the first human being.
"But, if we consider the matter in the concrete, then there are difficulties. If the animation by the intellectual soul took place in the embryonic age, a brute beast would give birth to a real human being instead of to an animal of its own species. If animation by the intellectual soul took place during infancy, who saw to the bringing up and education of this youngster? And if this animation took place at the adult stage, how is Scripture able to say that, when there was question of finding a companion for Adam, it was impossible to find one like himself? For it would have sufficed if God had breathed a soul into a female of the same animal species from which came the body of Adam. (De Hominis Natura, pp. 673~674.) [26]
P. Pignataro, S.J., in De Deo Creante (1905), p. 259, affirms:
"But we do not exclude secondary causes, as the angels, or natural agents, in the formation of the body, as instruments of the Deity, although the instrumental concursus does not seem likely. But we altogether reject that man originated as far as his body is concerned from the transformation of species of animals of a lower order.... Reason itself, and the teaching of Divine revelation, forbid us to regard our first parent as a sort of monkey." ... "the constant way of speaking of the Scripture assigns as the subject matter of the production of man, not some flesh already generated from seed, but the slime of the earth." [27]
Dominican theologian P. Hugon, in De Deo Creatore (1927), though allowing that the Church had not expressly defined anything, believed that Scripture and the Church did not permit the supposition that the human body was produced from an animal body. Van Noort argued that "no prudent person would contend that the body of Adam was formed by evolution, and that of Eve without evolution." [28]
In Dictionnaire Apologetique de la Foi Catholique, "the masterly survey of the whole subject" [Messenger's words], Pre de Sinty, S.J., observed three current opinions among theologians, briefly those who reject evolution as theologically erroneous, those who consider Catholics absolutely free to accept transformism, and the great number who take a middle position.
"In view of the fact that the harmonising of the theory of the restricted evolution of man with certain points of Catholic doctrine, notably with the unity of origin implied by the doctrine of original sin, appears to be, if not absolutely impossible, at least very unlikely; and the further fact that the scientific arguments on which this theory rests have not a strictly demonstrative value - it would be temerarious lo teach it as proved, or even as positively probable." [29]
Pope Pius XII teaches on Evolution
Over the ensuing years, reputable progressive theologians like Dr. Messenger, who were not disciplined by the Vatican, had much influence in seminaries and religious houses. Papal teaching on Biblical exegesis was thought to encourage a more flexible approach to Scriptural interpretation. Clergy anxious not to appear obscurantist were ready and willing to adopt a theology of origins acceptable to Science, which appeared unequivocally to have proved that evolution was a fact as certain as the rotundity of the Earth, though still not officially accepted by the Church. Thus was fertile ground prepared for the radical speculations of Fr. Teilhard de Chardin, whose works have since been condemned by Rome. [See Note 6]
In 1950, Pope Pius XII responded to the situation with his encyclical Humani Generis, intended to quell the disorder resulting from "doctrinal errors outside the Church and their effects among Catholics," which he identified as arising from "false evolutionary notions." Despite the anti-evolutionary tenor of the whole document, we may regret that the Holy Father had been advised not to close the debate absolutely. He permitted evolutionary research to continue, but only in respect of the possible emergence of "... the human body from pre-existing living matter." He did however clearly warn:
"There are some who take rash advantage of this liberty of debate, by treating the subject as if the whole matter were closed - as if the discoveries hitherto made, and the arguments based on them, were sufficiently certain to prove, beyond doubt, the development of the human body from other living matter already in existence. They forget, too, that there are certain references to the subject in the sources of divine revelation, which call for the greatest caution and prudence in discussing it." [30]
Many contemporary theologians already considered the question closed - in favour of Evolution! Since there had been no previous restrictions on their publications or debate, many clergy ignored these Magisterial warnings, using the excuse that not every statement in an encyclical has to be held as infallible teaching. [31]
Believing there was an urgent need for the Church to 'update' doctrines that appeared to conflict with modern science, they preferred to believe the encyclical allowed them to pursue such studies as the 'evolution of dogma', closed to the Modernists by Pope St. Pius X in 1907. [32] They often quoted the Pope as stating:
"The Teaching of the Church leaves the doctrine of Evolution an open question ..."
Some modernists, ironically, seem to treat just this phrase like an infallible dogma, even arguing that creationists are disloyal to the Pope by claiming that Evolution cannot be reconciled with Catholic doctrines! This is not only an unfair distortion of the document as a whole, which solemnly warns us of the evil consequences of the philosophy of evolutionism, but even more cogent is the fact that the words "an open question" are totally absent from the original Latin text, and must have been inserted by the translator, Mgr. Ronald A. Knox. [33] In fact, the Pope clearly warned the Bishops that it was wrong to believe and teach that Evolution was a proven fact. While in stark contrast, never have Catholics been forbidden to believe and teach that Evolution is false, a danger to Faith and Morals, and contrary to Scripture and Doctrine.
Assenters and dissenters to Humani Generis
By no means all the clergy and hierarchy accepted evolution. Cardinal Ruffini's book published in 1959, The Theory of Evolution judged by Reason and Faith, sought to show that:
"evolution applied to living beings, as is propounded by materialists, has no scientific basis; and that, in particular, transformism applied to man - even if restricted to the body -cannot be admitted." [34]
He argues that the Fathers of the Church unanimously interpreted Genesis literally in respect of the formation of Eve from Adam, and that the notion of God intervening to infuse a human soul into an animal body departs both from Catholic tradition and excludes scientific transformism. One wonders how many seminarians in the 1960's ever had the opportunity to study and discuss this work.
In 1988, the review Christ to the World published detailed theological articles by Fr. Peter Fehlner, OFM Conv., entitled In the Beginning, which reiterated that Pope Pius never gave permission for the rejection of the literal or historical sense of the whole of Genesis. Dr. Fehlner also concluded:
"Good arguments can be adduced in fact to show that evolution is simply not a scientific hypothesis. It is a dogma providing the context for all scientific endeavours. And it is just this assumption of 'Evolutionism' as the universal paradigm that directly conflicts with the teaching of the Church and constitutes an abuse of the limited permission of Pius XII to propose tentatively hypotheses of evolution within the limits of certain scientific questions and without questioning the decisions of the Church in matters touching Revelation.
It is claimed that the position generally called 'theistic evolution' permits the believer to retain a belief in God, which the agnostic or atheist evolutionist rejects. In such a synthesis religion is said to explain 'Who' made the world and 'why', while science explains 'how' He made it (by evolution). Religion deals with final causes, while science deals with efficient causes, processes and facts.
The Catholic believer cannot, however, drop from his belief facts bearing on the origin of the physical world as expounded in the revealed account of these origins without in fact also changing the nature of that belief, something not in his power. Hence, 'theistic evolution' as a viable Catholic position is a priori inconsistent with its alleged relegation of the 'how' of creation to study by science alone." [35]
Our third expert. Fr. Andre Boulet, with qualifications in both science and theology has reached the same conclusion in his 1995 book Creation et Rdemption: that evolution theory is bad science and incompatible with creation theology. Among his arguments are the problem of disorder, suffering and death before the Fall; the deception of Genesis in asserting the perfection and value of all created kinds if most of them became extinct; and the opposition of a brutish origin of man by evolution as a source of our evil tendencies, with the physical perfection corresponding with the privileges of creation with which our first parents were endowed by God.
"Is it surprising that a God unable to create without suffering or death, or worse still, wanting to use such a process of creating, is not the object of praise, thanks or love? How could his Wisdom and his Goodness be admired? How could such a Creator so ill-inspired in our eyes arouse other than fear, resentment, revolt, or at the best indifference along with strong disillusion. Does not the principal reason for the atheism or religious indifference of our contemporaries lie in the unacceptable idea of God conveyed by evolutionism; a God responsible for suffering and death, even though evolution is claimed to be compatible with the Christian faith?" [36]
Such voices of reason and Tradition have been largely drowned out by the large, powerful and vocal group of dissenters who continue to clamour for a major upheaval in Church teaching in regard to creation, original sin and Scriptural interpretation. They include very elevated members of the Hierarchy such as Cardinal Ratzinger, whose opinions may be read in his Principles of Catholic Theology (1982): "The impetus given by Teilhard de Chardin exerted a wide influence. With daring vision it incorporated the historical movement of Christianity into the great cosmic process of evolution." (p. 335). In the Beginning (1990) includes the following: "... for science has long since disposed of the concepts (Gen. 1-19) that we have just now heard we hear of the Big Bang, which happened billions of years ago ... it was rather in complex ways and over vast periods of time that earth and the universe were constructed." (p.12). "We cannot say: creation or evolution. The proper way of putting it is: creation and evolution." (p. 65). Contrast such ideas with the Catholic theology and Papal teachings already quoted.
Consequently, Pope Benedict XVI (back when he was known as Cardinal Ratzinger) seems to have, despite the more recent paper you quoted earilier, given a very difinitive warning behind intermeshing evolutionary thinking with the creation account.
CATHOLICS MUST REDISCOVER "TRUE RELIGION"
TCR: Cardinal Ratzinger Warns against "theory" of evolution, "syncretism"
PARIS, DEC 9 (ZENIT).- From November 25-27, the Sorbonne University of Paris, held a symposium entitled "Two Thousand Years After What?" Among the guest speakers was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. During the meeting, there was much talk about Y2K, but few speakers who refered to Christ's birth -- the real reason for the celebrations.
The French newspaper "Le Monde" put its finger on the problem: the symposium was an attempt to reflect "on the person of Christ and his teaching in the temple of rationalism created by the Second Republic."
Reactions to Cardinal Ratzinger's address were very unexpected, to the point that "Le Monde's" Sunday supplement gave front page coverage to a full transcription of the Bavarian Cardinal's talk.
The prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith focused on the major issues with which Christianity challenges the secular mentality, answering questions like, "can the notion of truth be applied to the Catholic religion or, in other words, can man know the truth about God and the divine?"
Ratzinger replied that Christianity "claims the truth." But over time this has caused waves of skepticism, if not downright hostility, in philosophic and scientific circles. "The theory of evolution seems to have surpassed the doctrine of creation, knowledge on the origin of man surpassed the doctrine of original sin."
With the end of metaphysics, it has been easy "to reduce Christian content to a symbolic discussion, not attributing to it any more truth than to historical myths of religions, and to look at it as one more way of religious experience, which must be thought about, in humility, along with others," the Cardinal stated. In a word, men run the insidious and diffused risk of homologizing the religious confessions and lowering the level of them all.
Addressing this intellectual challenge with determination, Cardinal Ratzinger suggested his listeners reflect on the origins of Christianity. "The force that transformed Christianity into a world religion was its synthesis of reason, faith, and life. It is precisely this synthesis that is expressed in the brief phrase true religion."
According to Cardinal Ratzinger, the real challenge for Catholics at the end of the millennium is to remain convinced in the profession of this true religion at a time characterized by relativism and the temptation to syncretism. "The commitment of Catholics to make the phrase 'true religion' real lies in making love and reason coincide as the fundamental pillars of reality: real reason is love, and love is real reason. United they constitute the true foundation and end of all that is real."
Traditional Catholic Reflections & Reports Note: The fact that Cardinal Ratzinger also reaffirms that macro-evolution is merely a "theory" also, we should think, clarifies JPII's controversial remarks on the subject a few years ago.
Having noted this, Anthony Nevard continues on with his article as follows:
The Pontifical Academy of Evolutionists
Despite being widely accepted even at the highest level in the Church, there has never been any authoritative teaching approving of evolution. Hence the reaction of the worldwide media to the Pope's message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on October 25th 1996. The ambiguous phrase that evolution is "more than just a theory" was greeted with glee by the materialistic press as an official admission of the collapse, under the weight of scientific research, of the Church's traditional beliefs in Adam and Eve and any literal sense of Genesis. [37]
Yet by no stretch of wishful thinking can the Pope's message, arguably not even written by him personally, be considered a Magisterial teaching, still less an infallible new dogma of faith, overturning previous doctrine.
If John Paul II is unaware of the contemporary crisis in the credibility of evolution, this could be related to the fact that his 80 scientific advisors in the Academy are all evolutionists, including Fr. Stanley Jaki and the atheist cosmologist Stephen Hawking. This bias must severely limit the competence of the Academy to fulfil the stated intentions of Pope Pius IX, on its foundation in 1936, "...who wished to surround himself with a select group of scholars, relying on them to inform the Holy See in complete freedom about developments in scientific research and thereby to assist him in his reflections." [38] In his 1996 Message, John Paul reminded the Academy that the Magisterium has already made pronouncements on these matters, and cites the encyclical "Humani Generis" in which Pope Pius XII:
"considered the doctrine of 'evolutionism' a serious hypothesis, worthy of investigation and in-depth study equal to that of the opposing hypothesis." A comparison with the text shows that the Message paraphrases the encyclical in a subtle but misleading way and omits its explicit warning that the evolution of man must not be treated as certain fact. [39]
It is also difficult to believe that "the opposing hypothesis," which remains unnamed but is presumably Special Creation, can have been given "equal investigation and in-depth study" by the Pontifical Academy if there is not one expert on Creation Science included among its members! A prudent Catholic cannot regard such pronouncements, especially in the contemporary post-Vatican II context, as of sufficient weight to overturn two millennia of Scripture, Tradition and Magisterial teachings.
The second part of the article continues here, and I think it raises some good questions:
http://www.theotokos.org.uk/...creation/daylight/faith2.html
Edit: Please note, I may not agree with all the thoughts expressed in these articles. For example, I do consider evolution to be a fact and not a theory. However, I think it raises interesting questions in regards to the Churches consistant teachings in regards to Adam and Eve -- and the "new" view that is emerging and diverging from this original position.
This message has been edited by Magisterium Devolver, 04-24-2005 11:21 AM
This message has been edited by Magisterium Devolver, 04-24-2005 11:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by paisano, posted 04-23-2005 11:51 AM paisano has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 289 of 332 (201706)
04-24-2005 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by mark24
04-24-2005 6:03 AM


Re: Judging witness reports / a puzzle
I am simply not going to bother with this kind of nonsense. If you don't believe the Israelites were real people, and you think the Mahabharata is equivalent, far be it from me to try to talk you out of your insanity. Good grief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by mark24, posted 04-24-2005 6:03 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by nator, posted 04-24-2005 1:21 PM Faith has replied
 Message 316 by Percy, posted 04-24-2005 4:24 PM Faith has replied
 Message 317 by mark24, posted 04-24-2005 4:30 PM Faith has replied

paisano
Member (Idle past 6441 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 290 of 332 (201707)
04-24-2005 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-24-2005 11:14 AM


Re: NO physical evidence for the miracles
I guess I'm a little bit confused as to why you could see this.
Evangelicals tend to look for "proof-texts" in the Scriptures to support their positions. Converts often carry this style of argument over into their Catholicism, except they expand their use of proof-texts to Catholic sources (including the CCC, selections from Papal/concilar documents, etc.)
This is often fine as far as it goes, but it often misses the point that Catholic theology is much more complex than that and draws on a huge volume of material. Piecing together what the canonical teaching is on certain issues looks much more like constitutional law, or even science ("go to the professional literature") than the evangelical style of argument takes into account.
That is why these sorts of discussions must always keep in mind the caution that we're laymen, and amateurs. The Church has the final prerogative of stating what is de fide and what isn't, and, as you know, there is development of doctrine over time.
I think your assertions about the A&E issue, in my layman's opinion, go beyond what the Magisterium mandates as de fide.
I've heard opinions similar to my own from theologians and priests, and Rome, or their local bishops, have declined to censure them. Rome,and local bishops, have also declined to censure those Catholics who, IMO, display excessive sympathy for the Intelligent Design theory, which in my (amateur) opinion is not necessary to the Catholic teaching on man, and in my (professional) opinion is bad science.
So both viewpoints apparently remain in what the Church considers a permissible gray area.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-24-2005 11:14 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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 Message 306 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-24-2005 2:37 PM paisano has not replied

paisano
Member (Idle past 6441 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 291 of 332 (201711)
04-24-2005 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-24-2005 12:17 PM


Re: God of the Bible vs God of imagination
A caution: you're apparently quoting from sources (Nevard, Keane) that are bordering on being disobedient to Rome from the ultraconservative end. The "More Catholic than the Pope types". This is as grave an error as the excessive theological liberalism, although often not recognized as such.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-24-2005 12:17 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 292 of 332 (201712)
04-24-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-24-2005 9:08 AM


Coming to the Red Sea event, however, we do need to be cautious before proclaiming that there will never be evidence to sufficiently prove the event happened -- and that the only thing we can rely on is the Scriptural record for its verification.
For example, as noted within Bill McGuire's book Raging Planet, if one is looking for "purely physical mechanisms" to explain Scriptural events, then the parting of the Red Sea may have been the waters withdrawing prior to the arrival of a deadly tsumani triggered by the volcanic obliteration of Thera.
The problem with appealing to any kind of natural explanation for any of the miracles in the Bible is that it destroys the miraculous nature of them and thereby compromises the character of God. If it's a miracle it needs no natural justification.
I appreciate your general discussion of the question of evidence, but you do seem to treat the idea of "faith" in the Biblical report as lightweight, which is the general attitude here. The credibility of the report is far weightier than that, just as faith itself, true faith, is substantial.
But of course that is just my judgment.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-24-2005 12:51 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-24-2005 9:08 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-24-2005 2:45 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 293 of 332 (201718)
04-24-2005 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by sidelined
04-24-2005 10:00 AM


Re: Real physical events may not leave physical evidence
This is not the thread for discussing the usual Bible-debunkery claims. As I've said if you think the Biblical witness is flawed, fine, don't believe it, and don't bother reading anything that might show you you are in error.
I will only answer this one:
Gen.7:7-10
And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark.... AND IT CAME TO PASS AFTER SEVEN DAYS, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth
Gen.7:11-13
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. IN THE SELFSAME DAY entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark.
Pretty obvious that they entered the ark when the rains and fountains of the deep and heavens all began to pour out water on the earth, that is, when it started, and that it took seven days for it to build to the fullfledged flood that lifted the ark up from the earth.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-24-2005 11:56 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by sidelined, posted 04-24-2005 10:00 AM sidelined has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 294 of 332 (201721)
04-24-2005 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by sidelined
04-24-2005 10:00 AM


Re: Real physical events may not leave physical evidence
Ex.20:13,
"Thou shalt not kill."
Ex.32:27
"Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor."
quote:
Would this be what you were referring to when you said in your present post and I quote
Faith writes:
And like many confused people these days you can't tell the difference between the murder of innocents and justice done to the guilty.

Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by sidelined, posted 04-24-2005 10:00 AM sidelined has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 295 of 332 (201724)
04-24-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by paisano
04-24-2005 10:38 AM


Re: NO physical evidence for the miracles
I don't think you're doing a particularly good job of convincing the skeptics, if that's your objective. You might want to evaluate whether your tactics are effective.
My objective is to tell the truth, God willing. The rest is not my business.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by paisano, posted 04-24-2005 10:38 AM paisano has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 296 of 332 (201740)
04-24-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
04-24-2005 12:37 PM


Re: Judging witness reports / a puzzle
quote:
If you don't believe the Israelites were real people, and you think the Mahabharata is equivalent, far be it from me to try to talk you out of your insanity.
But that's the point, Faith.
Sure, there really were Israelites, but that doesn't mean that the individual things reported in the Bible are perfectly accurate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 04-24-2005 12:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 04-24-2005 1:39 PM nator has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 297 of 332 (201752)
04-24-2005 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Percy
04-24-2005 11:07 AM


Re: The evidence is NOT physical
The witness reports were written down by Moses who lived through it all. The reports are first hand, not second hand, and millions saw the miracles, and the report is full of realistic detail. As I said, ALL we have are witness reports. That's it. That's God's plan -- we are to walk "by faith and not by sight." You insist on walking by sight against His command. But He's given all the necessary evidence for a solid faith in His testimony to anyone who will seek it with a good will.
So the artifacts of the Egyptian army haven't been found, but it's bad logic to argue from such an absence of proof, don't you know? Tomorrow they may well find such evidence. Every now and then, to lend support to the weak in faith who stumble under the steady onslaught of the scoffers, God allows an archaeological find that shows them up, such as the find about Sargon that Magisterium reports, such as the validation that such a people as the Biblical Hittites did in fact exist, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls that gave a solid answer to the wild certainty that the scriptures had been altered over the centuries. All these things confirm that the faith of Bible believers in the mere witness report is justified. We don't NEED physical evidence except to show up the scoffers from time to time, and it should be enough to turn believers away from ALL such claims.
But a confirmed scoffer will remain so despite all evidence of this sort they think is so important. Show their silly debunkery wrong on this or that claim by such objective physical finds from archaeology, answer endlessly their stupid knee-jerk misreadings of scripture, it doesn't matter, none of it makes a dent, they go right on with their self-congratulatory scoffing, never taking a step back to wonder.
Hey, you are free to believe whatever you like, but all of you here are going to have to answer to God for anything you say that causes doubt in some of the very shaky believers that visit here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Percy, posted 04-24-2005 11:07 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by crashfrog, posted 04-24-2005 2:05 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 298 of 332 (201758)
04-24-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by nator
04-24-2005 1:21 PM


Re: Judging witness reports / a puzzle
Read before you answer for a change! Sidelined {Edit: Sorry, it wasn't Sidelined, it was Mark24} said there's not even any reason to believe the Israelites were real people. Follow the argument please. Think for a change.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-24-2005 12:40 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by nator, posted 04-24-2005 1:21 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by jar, posted 04-24-2005 1:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 300 by nator, posted 04-24-2005 1:48 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 299 of 332 (201762)
04-24-2005 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Faith
04-24-2005 1:39 PM


Re: Judging witness reports / a puzzle
But that's not what he said.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 04-24-2005 1:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 04-24-2005 2:26 PM jar has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 300 of 332 (201764)
04-24-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Faith
04-24-2005 1:39 PM


Re: Judging witness reports / a puzzle
quote:
Think for a change.
Are you this arrogant and condescending in person, or is it the annonymity of this meassage board that makes you think that insulting people is perfectly OK?
If I became a Christian would I have to act like this? It would really be contrary to the way I was raised WRT having good manners.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 04-24-2005 1:39 PM Faith has not replied

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