The "science" of Miracles

Being agnostic is a healthy place for you to be in college. I not only appreciate your honesty, but I think that focusing on your studies and getting them under your belt is more important than any grand search for God at this point in your life. #Props I'm a rebel, P&C. I am journaling my latest health quest in my Health 4 Life~The Science Behind Consumption thread. The peanut gallery is attacking me as well for arrogantly declaring the medical establishment to be in error regarding treatment of diabetes, but I've got too much at stake to let go of this one...just as I have never thrown God away, as jar suggests that I do. But let's conclude my post by saying something about this thread we are in, shall we? A true miracle would occur if Pork&Cheese manages to get all of his homework done over Spring Break and graduates college with his agnostic mind intact rather than resorting to defending a God Who cannot and need not be defended. The science involved would be his self-discipline regarding understanding his studies and applying them to the courses with which he is in.By the way, P&C, what courses are you taking this semester?Are you taking any science courses? If so, do you think that it is possible for an event to occur that known science could not explain, and, if so, should it be labeled as a miracle?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : spelling

"True miracle" is the stumbling-block. You're assuming that scientists would interpret "something" as a "true miracle". They never have. Why would they now? I'm aware that you think I've made mistakes. You've done an elaborate semantic dance around almost every word I've used. For the most part, your criticism has done nothing to address the actual points being made. Is there a sentence in there? Is that your idea of being clear? See? There you go again, dancing around the issue. Just answer the question: What would constitute discussion? By all means, give details. You're kidding, right? If we tallied up the sarcasm and personal digs in this thread, you'd be miles out in front. I did ask questions. Recently I asked what you expect me to do to "discuss" your scenario. What's your answer?

Be a small target.

Yes, we know, science has not so far encountered a miracle. But what if, now, science for the first time encountered a true miracle? How would science react? So you didn't confuse "conclusion" and "inference"? Where your mistakes are pointed out, your replies pretend they never happened. Was it really your position in pointing out an error (that I readily conceded in Message 276) that it excused you from taking what I say seriously? Is that why you're subjecting the thread to this merry-go-round of spurious arguments and diversions, that you just don't take it seriously?No one is saying there aren't very strong scientific arguments against the existence of miracles. We all acknowledge that. But the discussion is about a hypothetical, it's speculative. What if science did encounter a true miracle? What then? And I think your posts represent a lengthy exercise in evasion and diversion. But you're not making any "actual points." You're just making up a bunch of excuses for why the "what if" is nonsense and impossible, all the while repetitively circling back to old arguments that have already been discussed. Is that your idea of reading comprehension? Oh, wait, I get it, when you're losing an argument you pretend not to understand. Or am I giving you too much credit? I can't tell you what to contribute from your side of the discussion. That's up to you. Just consider the "what if" instead of ruling it out-of-bounds out of hand.I can give you some possibilities to consider in the form of questions. Would science decide to incorporate the miraculous phenomena into science, thereby changing the nature of science? Would science decide the miraculous phenomena were beyond the purview of science? But wouldn't that mean that science is ignoring some types of evidence, specifically, those it can't explain? In which case how does science tell the difference between phenomena it can't explain at present and phenomena it will never explain? How significant does a violation of natural physical laws have to be before it is no longer an anomaly but a true violation? What can I say, I'm precocious.Obviously each of us considers the other as dancing around what the other is saying, and just as obviously we both feel unjustly accused. Ask again - I must have missed them. See above, but my own perspective is that you're pretty obviously avoiding discussing the "what if" while responding dismissively.--Percy

What if a dog encountered something he had never encountered before? How would he react?He'd react the same as he always reacts. He'd sniff it. He might bark at it. He might even mark it as part of his territory. You wouldn't expect him to react outside his repertoire of reactions, would you?So why would you expect scientists to react outside their repertoire of reactions? I don't agree with your nitpick. You made a conclusion, that scientists would "certainly" call your flying bridge a "miracle" Message 266. I don't think you're fooling anybody with your attempt to make a distinction between a conclusion and an inference. Whichever it is, it's wrong. See the dog above. That's a disappointing statement from somebody I respect. Instead of even trying to clarify, you question my intelligence.Never mind giving me any credit. Consider the possibility that somebody else might not have understood your convoluted mess of a sentence. Then don't complain about what I contribute. I haven't done anything "out of hand". I've explained that we have no reason to think scientists would react differently to one specific scenario than they always have reacted to every other scenario. You have given us no reason to think they would react differently. Probably not. The "nature of science" has served humanity pretty well as it is. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.As I've said, scientists would be more likely to leave an unanswered question unanswered until they could find an answer. Probably not. How can we predict what is "beyond the purview of science"? What hasn't been answered yet might only need another Einstein to come up with the answer tomorrow. It doesn't. That's why science doesn't have a folder for "phenomena it will never explain". See above. There is no folder for "true violations". You quoted one: "Recently I asked what you expect me to do to "discuss" your scenario. What's your answer?"

Given the number of times we've been over this, it's hard to see this as anything but a purposeful misunderstanding of what I mean when I ask, "How would science react," combined with an equally purposeful forgetting of prior explanations and clarifications. You keep circling back to the same objections as if they hadn't already been discussed. I'm not explaining this yet again. Wallow in your mental merry-go-round and amnesia. You're ignoring the point. You have made many mistakes throughout this discussion. Did you not twice call attention to a mistake I made (that I readily acknowledged) as a way of implying that I make mistakes and you don't? Did you not use it to question things I said for which you had no rationale other than that earlier in the discussion I had made said mistake? Does it not explain why you fail to take this discussion seriously and instead subject the thread to endless repeats of the same arguments that have already been answered? See if you can search your memory, or if that fails you read the thread, and figure out what was actually meant. Well, now I question your candor. There is no evidence of an attitude anything remotely like, "We've been going at this for some time, he keeps making the same obviously stupid and wrong point, but I respect this guy, so there is possibly some valid point in there, so I should make an effort to figure out what it is." Instead you've subjected the thread to the Ringo Round-a-Bout where nothing is understood or remembered while the same arguments endlessly flash by. It was plain English. It was just convenient for you at the time to ignore the point and feign incomprehension. I started the discussion giving you all the credit in the world, but over the past hundred messages or whatever it is there's been nothing new or original from you, just already-answered arguments previously raised at least a dozen times, plus many deliberate misinterpretations of points intended to stymie progress toward any mutual understanding. You're not contributing anything. You're imitating a broken record. You've raised this misunderstanding of the scenario many times, I've explained it many times, I'm not explaining it again. Go back and read previous messages. So there's phenomena science would rule off-limits for its consideration and study? Really? But what if the answer is that natural laws can be violated? Doesn't this contradict your answer above where you thought that science would decide against including miraculous phenomena within science? We agree on this one. And disagree on this one. You just did a slight bit of "discussing the scenario" by proffering brief answers to questions from within the scenario's context.--Percy

This thread and conversation are a prime example of how the few of us who are left on board the aging sea vessel SS EvC attempt to communicate with each other, understand each other, refute each other, and (God forbid) agree with each other! a few hypotheticals:Faith: God exists! You would understand it if only you saw the internal proof!Percy: The evidence clearly shows otherwise, dear Faith...but you will never understand my POV because you have only a desire to state your own POV.Ringo: Slowpitch it to me, baby. I knock em out of the park every time! The evidence clearly shows this.Percy: But what if a hypothetical situation came up which we couldn't explain?Ringo: Then we would keep looking for answers. Everything can be explained eventually.Percy: But what if the conclusion was outside the realm of known science?Ringo: Be patient. Nothing is ever really outside this realm...we simply need to catch up to it.Percy: Cant you discuss anything instead of concluding everything and defining it for us?Ringo: I define therefore I AM. Next question?

I didn't say any such thing. I said that science would not change the nature od science. How can that be "the answer"? That would imply that we understood the natural laws completely. That would preclude changes in our understanding for such things as quantum mechanics and relativity. Miracles, by definition, can not be explained. Science does not allow for anything being impossible to explain.

Wrong. All I promise is to swing at all of them. Wrong. All I say is that we'll keep swinging.

Maybe that's the issue then, between you and Percy. Percy wants you to play a game of hypothetical catch and toss, where we discuss hypotheticals whereas you seek to swing at them and knock them out of the park. In essence, you are so focused on defining the parameters of the conversation that there can be no discussion...only Ringo attempting to finalize a conclusion every single pitch.

Not at all. I'm trying to figure out what the parameters are. Maybe you can explain them.

Yes, of course you said words to that effect, but that isn't all you said. To summarize the other part of the conversation:

• P: Would science include miraculous phenomena, thereby changing the nature of science?
• R: Probably not.
• P: So science would ignore the miraculous phenomena? (I assume that "probably not" applied to the "include miraculous phenomenon" portion as well as the "changing the nature of science" portion, since that's consistent with what you've said in other posts about miraculous phenomena.)

I mean, if you're not including miraculous phenomena within science, then you must be ignoring them, right? What other choices are there? Some side category of "not science but we're studying it scientifically anyway"? That's part of the "what if." If it helps, imagine you're in a science fantasy novel where you've been transported to a universe where miracles have been recently discovered to be real, taking the form of violations of known physical laws. I think tentativity rules out the possibility of ever understanding natural laws completely. The key pieces of that part of the conversation went like this:

• P: Would science decide the miraculous phenomena were beyond the purview of science?
• R: Probably not.
• P: Isn't that the opposite of your earlier statement (see above) where you said science would "probably not" include miraculous phenomena?

--Percy

The Scientific method is a tentative self correcting method of explaining nature. Therefore it stands to reason if something is in of itself inexplicable it would be incorporated into the body of science to be further examined.IF a miracle occurred and was investigated by scientist and found to be inexplicable. Would the scientist then throw away all data pertaining to this event as not worthy of further investigation because it is inexplicable?

No, it's the extraneous epithet "miracle" that science ignores. A phenomenon is a phenomenon is a phenomenon. They're not categorized as "red phenomena" or "warm and fuzzy phenomena". One phenomenon is not treated differently from another. We've been there already. If you're what-iffing that scientists throw science out the window, the whatif has even less value. That's the whole problem with your scenario; it's science fiction, not science. Science is not effected by everything you can dream up. So if we can never understand the natural laws completely, we can never say that they have been violated. All we can say is that our current understanding is inadequate to explain the phenomenon.

What I was taught is that out-lying data is kept but it is not included in the conclusion - e.g. if all of your data points but one forms a nice straight line, you draw the straight line - but you leave the outlier on the graph.