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Author Topic:   How big is our Galaxy.
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 61 of 147 (278911)
01-14-2006 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Iblis
01-14-2006 10:57 AM


Origin of the Cosmic Background Radiation
Prior to 270,000 yrs, space was filld with a plasma, with free electrons and protons. This is opaque to photons, as they continually scatter off these particles. At 270,000 yrs, temperatures dropped to the point of recombination, where the electrons and protons hooked up to form neutral hydrogen. Suddenly, the universe became transparent and the photons were finally free. The CMB are the photons that have not interacted since leaving this moment of "last scattering". You are right, the homogeneity of the CMB is a result of the homogeneity of that plasma which in turn was a result of the inflationary period 270,000 yrs earlier.
This message has been edited by cavediver, 01-15-2006 12:37 PM

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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 62 of 147 (278914)
01-14-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Percy
01-14-2006 10:55 AM


Re: Night of the Creationists.
objects at the limit of observability a billion years ago are no longer visible to us today
That's exactly what I'm saying though. Objects which were at the very limit of observability a billion years ago, have continued sending us that same last signal they were sending us then, with increasing red-shift, ever since. The objects themselves are now beyond observation, we will never see them move or change again. Objects which were slightly closer than that have moved beyond the visible light horizon and turned into permanent last-signal artifacts in the billion years since, and many more objects will reach this horizon in the next billion years, even though the horizon itself will be a billion light-years further away.
Eventually, assuming an infinite (open) universe, all signals whatsoever will be reduced to this permanent artifact status and decrease in energy to absolute flatness. No further communication will be possible within spacetime as we know it.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 63 of 147 (278916)
01-14-2006 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by cavediver
01-14-2006 10:31 AM


Re: Night of the Creationists.
cavediver writes:
Iblis is right... the cosmological horizon is precisely that which represents infinite red shift (recession at c) and the big bang. It's not a coincidence.
I think what you're calling the cosmological horizon is not the same thing as what I called the theoretical limit of observability, or the theoretical observability horizon. This is the point at which the cosmological constant causes expansion at a rate too large for light to overcome. What I was trying to say was that I don't think that point corresponds to the Big Bang.
--Percy

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 64 of 147 (278917)
01-14-2006 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Percy
01-14-2006 11:12 AM


Re: Night of the Creationists.
This is the point at which the cosmological constant
Ahh, you see, this is what changes everything! Yes, you are quite right, Lambda screws all of this up. With Lambda=0, then it is as I have explained. When I last wrote a paper, Lambda did equal zero !!!
Let me go and think of FRW with Lambda and I will get back soon...

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 147 (278918)
01-14-2006 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by cavediver
01-14-2006 10:45 AM


Re: Night of the Creationists.
Yes, I'm sure you're right. Though of course we could be "small" and multiply connected...
Yeah, thats very true. In fact if I remember correctly there is recent observational evidence to suggest that we are multiply connected.
Hi SG. Don't confuse the obs universe with "now", the comoving hypersurface we ride upon. The 78 billion lyrs is the size of the universe on that surface, though is obviously highly lambda dependent, so we don't really have a clue.
Yeah, again correct. The unfortunate thing about observational cosmology is you accidentally get a picture of all this stuff being out there right now.
With regards to the direction jar seems to be going in, the only way around this fact that we can see more of the universe than YEC allows, is to posit light being created in transit.
Which carries its own problems. (Not-falsifiable for one)

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 66 of 147 (278919)
01-14-2006 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Iblis
01-14-2006 11:06 AM


Re: Night of the Creationists.
I think we may be talking about two different things. I think you're saying that an object at the theoretical observability horizon a billion years ago would have passed over that horizon in the intervening time. I agree.
Where we don't agree is that the big bang represents the theoretical observability horizon. I don't think it does. It would be a remarkable coincidence if we lived just at the point in time when the cosmological expansion rate had caused the theoretical observability horizon to correspond exactly to the the age of the universe.
--Percy

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 147 (278920)
01-14-2006 11:30 AM


An easy to find quote:
(Still trying to get a decent paper with the method included)
"All the pieces add up to 78 billion-light-years. The light has not traveled that far, but 'the starting point of a photon reaching us today after travelling for 13.7 billion years is now 78 billion light-years away,' Cornish said. That would be the radius of the universe, and twice that -- 156 billion light-years -- is the diameter. That's based on a view going 90 percent of the way back in time, so it might be slightly larger."
"For a wide class of models, the non-detection rules out the possibility that we live in a universe with topology scale smaller than 24 Gpc."

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 68 of 147 (278921)
01-14-2006 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Percy
01-14-2006 11:23 AM


Re: Night of the Creationists.
Thank you, I'm waiting to see what cavediver says about lambda (and hoping I will be able to understand it )
In the meantime yes, it would be a remarkable coincidence for us now at this time only to be exactly (age) away from (horizon)of course, but I am definitely not asserting that. We will have always been exactly (age) away from (horizon) less (inflation).
That is to say, the permanent signal now reaching us from the horizon was only 2 billion light years away when it left, traveled 13 billion light years to get here, keeps arriving forever though shifted down lower and lower into infinitisemality, and will never change again (if it was video of a clock that clock would never be observed as experiencing any more ticking)
That object itself is say 78 billion light years away now (whatever little that might mean once we give up simultaneity) and has aged whatever aging would apply to objects conceived of as moving away from us at a speed faster than light could be conceived of as aging. No way to ever check that answer though.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 69 of 147 (278930)
01-14-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Iblis
01-14-2006 11:40 AM


Re: Night of the Creationists.
Iblis writes:
That object itself is say 78 billion light years away now (whatever little that might mean once we give up simultaneity) and has aged whatever aging would apply to objects conceived of as moving away from us at a speed faster than light could be conceived of as aging. No way to ever check that answer though.
You mentioned aging, so I just wanted to add a little about clocks in distant galaxies. These clocks move at the same rate as our own. That's because relativistic effects only apply to objects in motion relative to each other. These distant galaxies have only a small motion relative to ourselves, and so we observe only very tiny relativistic effects. This is because recession due to the expansion of space is not included when measuring relative motion.
--Percy

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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 70 of 147 (278932)
01-14-2006 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
01-14-2006 12:07 PM


Re: Night of the Creationists.
These clocks move at the same rate as our own
Whatever that means
If we observe them through a telescope though, they will appear to tick ever more slowly than our own, because tick 1 billion left from a distance further away than tick 1.

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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 71 of 147 (278944)
01-14-2006 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by cavediver
01-14-2006 11:15 AM


Hubble distance
In the meantime here is something nice from Wiki to summarize
It is a common misconception that the observable universe is only 14 billion light years in radius because the universe is only 14 billion years old, and it follows logically that if nothing may travel faster than the speed of light, the universe may not have expanded at greater than the speed of light. However, the Special Relativity speed limit only applies to motion through space; space may expand faster than c. This occurs when space expands behind a photon in transit, and the photon may travel distance which is now greater than the Hubble distance, the distance beyond which objects recede at faster than the speed of light, or the traditionally and incorrectly defined edge of the observable universe[1].
There is some disagreement as to exactly how large the observable universe is: a study of the cosmic microwave background radiation by Wmap in May 2004 states the universe is at least 78 billion light years in radius[2], yet the March 2005 issue of Scientific American cites a figure of 46 billion lys in every direction.
In practice we can only observe objects as far as the surface of last scattering 300,000 years after the big bang when the universe had cooled sufficiently to permit electrons to bind to nuclei, which brought a halt to the Compton scattering of ambient photons.
Observable universe - Wikipedia
They didn't have anything worthwile on the Hubble Distance so I dredged this up
Hubble's "law" is
v = H x d
with the modern value of the slope, H, called the Hubble Parameter (sometimes called Hubble Constant, but as we shall see it is not constant):
H ~ 20 km/s/million l. y.
The precise value of the Hubble Parameter is a matter of very hot debate with different groups proposing values between 15 km/s/million l. y. to 25 km/s/million l. y. It is interesting to note that the units for the Hubble Parameter are 1/time and the current estimate corresponds to a time of about 15 billion years. What might this time correspond to?
http://cassfos02.ucsd.edu/public/tutorial/Distances.html

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 72 of 147 (278949)
01-14-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
01-14-2006 12:07 PM


Re: Night of the Creationists.
These clocks move at the same rate as our own.
Only in their own comoving frame, which is not the same as our comoving frame.
That's because relativistic effects only apply to objects in motion relative to each other.
No, the galaxies have observable time-dilation. If their light is redshifted, there is time dilation. If there is extreme red-shifting there is extreme time dilation. They are one and the same concept. This is exactly the same principle behind gravitational red-shift, in which case you need no relative motion. Go hang off a black hole for a few minutes and give everyone a shock when you get back (assuming you can find anyone alive that you know!)

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 73 of 147 (278953)
01-14-2006 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Iblis
01-14-2006 1:06 PM


Re: Hubble distance
quote:
It is a common misconception that the observable universe is only 14 billion light years in radius because the universe is only 14 billion years old, and it follows logically that if nothing may travel faster than the speed of light, the universe may not have expanded at greater than the speed of light.
Another good reason not to overly trust Wiki. I have not seen many better examples of a non-sequitur. To have an idea of what we talk about in terms of radii, you need to sit down with a good space-time diagram of the particluar model you are considering and look at all the different possible "distances" you are considering.

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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 74 of 147 (278955)
01-14-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by cavediver
01-14-2006 1:49 PM


Re: Hubble distance
good reason not to overly trust Wiki
So are you saying that that is not a common misconception? Or that that is not what the misconception is? Has the misconception itself been misperceived?
Aren't we talking about the absolute limits of our concepts anyway? So it shouldn't be a surprise that they start to fail.
* edited due to the very thing itself
This message has been edited by Iblis, 01-14-2006 02:03 PM

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 75 of 147 (278957)
01-14-2006 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Iblis
01-14-2006 2:00 PM


Re: Hubble distance
My basic point was that their comment about the (erroneous idea) of the universe expanding no faster than c does not logically follow from their first point.
Their first point is also completely confusing. They say that the radius of the observable universe is not 26 Glyrs but go on to discuss something which is not the observable universe (the radius of the universe "now").
There are some correct points, some incorrect points, and some confused points. I think the confusion is the dominating feature

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