Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9173 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,576 Year: 4,833/9,624 Month: 181/427 Week: 94/85 Day: 1/10 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Our perfect place in the heavens..
John
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 53 (23999)
11-24-2002 12:33 AM


One major argument for ID revolves around the idea that conditions in the universe had to be just-so or we wouldn't be here.
It appears that a big bite has been taken out of this argument.
Discover Financial Services
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Coragyps, posted 11-24-2002 11:11 AM John has replied
 Message 13 by Brad McFall, posted 12-20-2002 1:05 AM John has not replied
 Message 20 by logicalunatic, posted 12-21-2002 12:17 AM John has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 812 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 2 of 53 (24036)
11-24-2002 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by John
11-24-2002 12:33 AM


I had a discussion with a business acquaintance a while back in which he said that the Earth has the most nearly circular orbit of all the Sun's planets, and that this is obvious proof that the Solar System was Intelligently Designed (TM) just for us. He got a little defensive when I pointed out that Venus and Neptune both have more nearly circular orbits than us, and don't appear to be all that life-friendly. I'd like to find out who told him that - it's rather odd to preach information that's that easily falsified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by John, posted 11-24-2002 12:33 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by John, posted 11-24-2002 11:26 AM Coragyps has not replied
 Message 17 by Brad McFall, posted 12-21-2002 12:02 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 53 (24041)
11-24-2002 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coragyps
11-24-2002 11:11 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Coragyps:
it's rather odd to preach information that's that easily falsified.
Odd? Seem like a creationist staple to me.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Coragyps, posted 11-24-2002 11:11 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by forgiven, posted 12-13-2002 7:05 AM John has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 53 (26484)
12-13-2002 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by John
11-24-2002 11:26 AM


hi john
quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by Coragyps:
it's rather odd to preach information that's that easily falsified.
Odd? Seem like a creationist staple to me.

maybe it's a small point, but the article you posted isn't quite the same as the argument i've heard framed... it isn't about what it would take for all of us to die, it's about the conditions necessary for us to be here in the first place... maybe that article speaks to that, i'll read it more closely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by John, posted 11-24-2002 11:26 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by John, posted 12-13-2002 10:42 AM forgiven has not replied
 Message 18 by Brad McFall, posted 12-21-2002 12:06 AM forgiven has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 53 (26493)
12-13-2002 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by forgiven
12-13-2002 7:05 AM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
maybe it's a small point, but the article you posted isn't quite the same as the argument i've heard framed... it isn't about what it would take for all of us to die, it's about the conditions necessary for us to be here in the first place... maybe that article speaks to that, i'll read it more closely
What I have seen argued is that the Earth is in a near perfect orbit to support life-- not too hot, not too cold.... etc. The point of the article is that a vaste range of orbits could support life and not just life in general but life pretty much as exists on Earth today. Therefore, the appeal to perfect orbital design falls flat.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by forgiven, posted 12-13-2002 7:05 AM forgiven has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Brad McFall, posted 12-13-2002 11:51 AM John has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5111 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 6 of 53 (26502)
12-13-2002 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by John
12-13-2002 10:42 AM


Where I am going we are going to have to keep "orbit" and "trajectory" seperate. I could speculate with the words given above here but I think it would re-play the display better if one tried to claim (as I am attempting) that the extra gravity well dimension that makes the Humphryes universe visible; whether or not we all agree to see or not see the same light as to the life occurring here only (for it may be the means from the "perfect" orbit via any storm (newton's comet) to simply project where best to look for life or rather a statistical approach to the different trajectories is more likely.
That said I do think that IF this is the ability to visulize this 5th dimension (mostly here on Earth) then (although I would perfer to be led to my statements by reasoning with Humphryes tensors regionalizing within galaxay clustering etc)the reason that creationists can see what evoultionists do not is because the small ex nihilo probability is becoming more than a possibility.
The difficult thing is to get beyond the barrier without having to reason with general relativity. That may not be possible. But seeing continental drift as a whole CartesianISM IS possible. Einstein made the sophomore geometry observation and we do not need to assume that only Partial Differential Equations are going to network the space but once one abandons the models for life to live wihout scientific support for why it is there is most life on Earth centers not only the Solar System but also the Reproductive Connection.
Pascal seperated Arithemetic, Mechanics and Geometry and Newton did for Geometry and Mechanics but Galelio also presented a totality the overlap needs to be worked OUT which the position of Poncarre only seems to RETURN the pionts of when this is an issue of extenstion or expansion. Regardless the priveldged position of life on Earth + Humprhyes cosmology explains how I can Understand that Kant understood the plane of the Solar System. The chain to primeval slime however may not be able to be writ along a sigle descending line however as life on Earth may have multiple (baraminic) origins.
I am finaly begining to concieve what science without evolution looks like. But that indeed is but the cell of my conviction and not necessarily objective enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by John, posted 12-13-2002 10:42 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by John, posted 12-13-2002 12:25 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 53 (26505)
12-13-2002 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Brad McFall
12-13-2002 11:51 AM


Brad, I'm sorry, but I don't speak whatever language this is. However, in the spirit of adventure, I am going to attempt a response.
quote:
Where I am going we are going to have to keep "orbit" and "trajectory" seperate.
'k, though I don't see this theme recur anywhere.
quote:
I could speculate with the words given above here but I think it would re-play the display better if one tried to claim (as I am attempting) that the extra gravity well dimension that makes the Humphryes universe visible;
That what, Brad? This isn't a sentence. If one tried to claim that ..... what?
quote:
whether or not we all agree to see or not see the same light as to the life occurring here only (for it may be the means from the "perfect" orbit via any storm (newton's comet)
It doesn't matter if we agree on the issue that life exists only on Earth rather than elswhere. Yes?
quote:
to simply project where best to look for life or rather a statistical approach to the different trajectories is more likely.
This appears to be a synopsis of the research reported in the article I cited.
quote:
That said I do think that IF this is the ability to visulize this 5th dimension (mostly here on Earth) then (although I would perfer to be led to my statements by reasoning with Humphryes tensors regionalizing within galaxay clustering etc)
I have no idea what visualization or what fth dimensions it is of which you speak.
quote:
the reason that creationists can see what evoultionists do not is because the small ex nihilo probability is becoming more than a possibility.
The chances of something from nothing are looking better then? ok. Are you talking about the BB, or about abiogenesis? I can't tell. The later would be more on topic.
quote:
The difficult thing is to get beyond the barrier without having to reason with general relativity. That may not be possible.
What would this gain us?
quote:
But seeing continental drift as a whole CartesianISM IS possible.
Right. Ok. But what does plate tectonics have to do with planetary orbits, in context?
quote:
Einstein made the sophomore geometry observation and we do not need to assume that only Partial Differential Equations are going to network the space but once one abandons the models for life to live wihout scientific support for why it is there is most life on Earth centers not only the Solar System but also the Reproductive Connection.
1) Never thought I'd see 'Einstein' and 'sophomore' in the same sentence.
2) 'k. no assumptions about partial differential equations?????
3) What models for life to live without scientific support? I suppose you mean, 'abandon the models which lack scientific support?' Ok. Not a problem.
4) Why does life center the Solar System? It doesn't. But we have to live somewhere.
5) What reproductive connection and what does it have to do with planetary orbits?
quote:
Regardless the priveldged position of life on Earth + Humprhyes cosmology explains how I can Understand that Kant understood the plane of the Solar System.
Can you explain to us?
quote:
The chain to primeval slime however may not be able to be writ along a sigle descending line however as life on Earth may have multiple (baraminic) origins.
Fine. Life may have emerged from slime multiple times. Your evocation of 'baramins' is unfounded. And, finally, what does this have to do with planetary orbits?
quote:
I am finaly begining to concieve what science without evolution looks like.
Good for you. What does this have to do with the topic of the thread?
quote:
But that indeed is but the cell of my conviction and not necessarily objective enough.
At least you are honest about it. Kudos.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
[This message has been edited by John, 12-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Brad McFall, posted 12-13-2002 11:51 AM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by forgiven, posted 12-13-2002 10:32 PM John has not replied
 Message 9 by Brad McFall, posted 12-14-2002 3:21 PM John has replied
 Message 14 by Brad McFall, posted 12-20-2002 1:22 AM John has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 53 (26557)
12-13-2002 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by John
12-13-2002 12:25 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
Brad, I'm sorry, but I don't speak whatever language this is. However, in the spirit of adventure, I am going to attempt a response.

you're a better man than i, gunga din or kubla khan or whatever *grin*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by John, posted 12-13-2002 12:25 PM John has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5111 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 9 of 53 (26599)
12-14-2002 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by John
12-13-2002 12:25 PM


I dont have time now but I will come back to this "nexus" of correcting my UBBs etc and answer your comments/responses. Thanks so much for not making this into a game.
The place has to do with that HEAVEN is not an insulator or a conductor but evovling heat is a concept that I can not distinguish from your notes as yet. The base-pairs of DNA can be thought as the contacts in Farady's recognition of what is counter the "idea" but I am disumlating because I had difficulty posting today. I'll work back again. You do not need to hold my words up. They will remain.
I do not think this is necessarily the only place for life but I do think that as if we find it elsewhere there can be constructed a correlation of trajectories (when not orbits) between earth biogeography and any other place life may be (including those places we or our technology travels too (this can include genetic engineered technology))(In other words I do not think it would be the eventual "evolutionst" spin to say that we are going to explain by multiplying Crick panspermia colonizations (this is a judgement of current data however, there is a chance I could change my mind on this)
[This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 12-21-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by John, posted 12-13-2002 12:25 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by forgiven, posted 12-14-2002 5:10 PM Brad McFall has replied
 Message 11 by John, posted 12-16-2002 2:34 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 53 (26611)
12-14-2002 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Brad McFall
12-14-2002 3:21 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Brad McFall:
I dont have time now but I will come back to this "nexus" of correcting my UBBs etc and answer your comments/responses. Thanks so much for not making this into a game.
brad i'm sorry for saying anything that might lead you to believe i was making your posts into a game, or not taking them as seriously as they deserve to be taken... that wasn't my intention, but i am very sorry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Brad McFall, posted 12-14-2002 3:21 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Brad McFall, posted 12-16-2002 3:22 PM forgiven has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 53 (26822)
12-16-2002 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Brad McFall
12-14-2002 3:21 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Brad McFall:
I dont have time now but I will come back to this "nexus" of correcting my UBBs etc and answer your comments/responses. Thanks so much for not making this into a game.
Hey Brad...
Bump... just keeping this topic on top.
Take care.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Brad McFall, posted 12-14-2002 3:21 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Brad McFall, posted 12-21-2002 12:20 AM John has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5111 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 12 of 53 (26841)
12-16-2002 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by forgiven
12-14-2002 5:10 PM


Nono Ho LD everything. I was talking to JOhn, I am only permitted one hour a day in ITHACA free comp time. I had come to this site last that time. I am traveling out of state later so siblings permitting I will have all the time in the world to talk at a time. You are forgiven but I never had any grudge, offense, etc. I do not get mad on this board and since ipretty much dont care if others dont get what I say I guess it is on me just not to visit the places that had bit my heel. And dont read Jillian into this either. Happy Holidyad.
I dont even think I have time to day to go point for point with John.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by forgiven, posted 12-14-2002 5:10 PM forgiven has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5111 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 13 of 53 (27449)
12-20-2002 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by John
11-24-2002 12:33 AM


John, I lost my work on this -- that is too bad as I wont be able to recreate this. Sorry I was on a new system. I try again when I am re-freshed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by John, posted 11-24-2002 12:33 AM John has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5111 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 14 of 53 (27450)
12-20-2002 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by John
12-13-2002 12:25 PM


B-->Where I am going we are going to have to keep "orbit" and "trajectory" seperate
J-->'k, though I don't see this theme recur anywhere.
In the post I lost I had expressed this fairly well(again) so instead let me ask at this point the question, Do you mean "recur" in this post? or did you mean in nature or science, the latter of which was what the loss and other web site postings referred.
<--BM
quote:
I could speculate with the words given above here but I think it would re-play the display better if one tried to claim (as I am attempting) that the extra gravity well dimension that makes the Humphryes universe visible;
John
quote:
That what, Brad? This isn't a sentence. If one tried to claim that ..... what?
Let me come back to this in context of the actual link you started this thread from and come back to my own maybe other ideas if the path leads and we (including me) follow. I'm going to stop here for now since I lost my chain of thought post to the first entry in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by John, posted 12-13-2002 12:25 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by John, posted 12-20-2002 8:30 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 53 (27469)
12-20-2002 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Brad McFall
12-20-2002 1:22 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Brad McFall:
In the post I lost I had expressed this fairly well(again) so instead let me ask at this point the question, Do you mean "recur" in this post? or did you mean in nature or science, the latter of which was what the loss and other web site postings referred.
Recur in the post. I don't see where this comes into play in the context of the discussion.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Brad McFall, posted 12-20-2002 1:22 AM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Brad McFall, posted 12-20-2002 11:54 PM John has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024