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Author Topic:   Why Parallel Universes?
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 67 (137505)
08-27-2004 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Darwin Storm
08-27-2004 6:39 PM


Re: quantum suicide
1st) The quantum probability for such a scenario is so low you could endlessly repeat the experiment till the heat death of the universe and still not have it occur. Just because there is a probablity, doesnt mean it is likely to happen.
The point of many worlds is that any possibility, however remote, does happen as long as it is in abeyance with the laws of physics. I've no idea what the probabilities are, but if we say there's a 1 in 10^1000 chance the bullet might tunnel through your head then it will happen in at least one of the universes once the bullet is fired. You'll never have to wait very long.
The beauty is, that when you're done you can just keep doing it again and again and again and....
2nd) Even if a quantum event such as that occurs, it doesn;t verify or unverify any hypothesis about alternate universes, since quantum mechanics doesnt say why it works, it just describes the how. We have quantum tunnelling events all the time on the microscopic (actually submicrosopic level). It is a accepted facet of QM. I don't understand how you could draw this out to be evidence for multiple universes.
I'm more inclined to agree with you on this point. Whilst quantum mechanics provides a mathematical formulation for matter and fields, it is the interpretation of QM which is resolved in this experiment (Copenhagen vs Many worlds). The interpretation provides some sort of framework for the 'why' as well as the 'how'.
Under the Copenhagen interpretation it'd be extremely unlikely you'd be alive at the end, to the point of absolutely negligible - so its a pretty good test (as far as I can see) of falsifying the Copenhagen interpretation, at the very least. And that's gotta be worth risking a bullet in your skull over.
Here's a link to a New Scientist article explaining the concept in more depth. Note that the original experiment uses a Schrodinger's cat type set-up where the outcome of a quantum event determines whether or not the gun is fired. I prefer to think of the firing of the gun and whether or not the bullet will tunnel through your head as a quantum event in itself.
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Darwin Storm, posted 08-27-2004 6:39 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Mike Holland, posted 08-27-2004 8:11 PM Primordial Egg has replied

  
Mike Holland
Member (Idle past 484 days)
Posts: 179
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 32 of 67 (137507)
08-27-2004 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Primordial Egg
08-27-2004 7:40 PM


Re: quantum suicide
Why are all the examples based on binary events - the electron going through one slit or the other? The quantum probability 'waves' are continuous, giving an infinite number of possible outcomes.
To use a different example, imagine a radioactive atom and a detector set up so when the atom decays, a hammer will hit me on the head. So after one second, a universe splits off in which I have just been hit. After 2 seconds another splits off as the atom in that one decays, etc. Similarly for any time in-between. So one probability event produces an infinity of universes.
But going back to the traditional two-slit experiment, if the electron goes through one slit in one universe, and through the other in another universe, then neither universe would see the interference pattern. To get an interference pattern, all the probabilities (the whole quantum field) must exist in the one universe AFTER the field has passed through the slits. Does the universe split only after the electron has been absorbed by the film, or only when the experimenter has developed the film and looks at it?
I think I will stick with Newton!
Mike.
This message has been edited by Mike Holland, 08-27-2004 07:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Primordial Egg, posted 08-27-2004 7:40 PM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Primordial Egg, posted 08-27-2004 8:22 PM Mike Holland has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 67 (137510)
08-27-2004 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Mike Holland
08-27-2004 8:11 PM


Re: quantum suicide
Hi Mike,
I have to go now, but I'll leave you with this link which I was going to read up on and attempt to explain in my own words anyway. It should be helpful:
The Role of Decoherence in Quantum Mechanics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Mike Holland, posted 08-27-2004 8:11 PM Mike Holland has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Christian7, posted 08-27-2004 9:10 PM Primordial Egg has replied
 Message 39 by Mike Holland, posted 08-29-2004 4:16 AM Primordial Egg has not replied
 Message 46 by Mike Holland, posted 09-06-2004 1:40 AM Primordial Egg has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 34 of 67 (137516)
08-27-2004 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Primordial Egg
08-27-2004 8:22 PM


Re: quantum suicide
What I mean't by your concious jumping universes is that if you kill yourself but an identical person who is you in another universe is still alive. Will your own self-conciousness be in that universe, would you see what your conter-part sees would you be that conterpart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Primordial Egg, posted 08-27-2004 8:22 PM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Christian7, posted 08-28-2004 2:32 PM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 40 by Primordial Egg, posted 08-30-2004 6:04 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 35 of 67 (137639)
08-28-2004 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Christian7
08-27-2004 9:10 PM


Re: quantum suicide
SOMEBODY BETTER ANSWER MY QUESTION RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Christian7, posted 08-27-2004 9:10 PM Christian7 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by AdminAsgara, posted 08-28-2004 2:52 PM Christian7 has replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 36 of 67 (137645)
08-28-2004 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Christian7
08-28-2004 2:32 PM


Re: quantum suicide
Excuse me?
Guido, you have been around long enough to realize that this type of post is not going to get you a reply. I suggest that you tone down the attitude.

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe


http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Christian7, posted 08-28-2004 2:32 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Christian7, posted 08-28-2004 3:11 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 37 of 67 (137650)
08-28-2004 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by AdminAsgara
08-28-2004 2:52 PM


Re: quantum suicide
ok. sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by AdminAsgara, posted 08-28-2004 2:52 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
nipok
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 67 (137773)
08-29-2004 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mission for Truth
07-12-2004 1:52 PM


I just have one question. Why do scientists think parallel universes exist? What is the evidence or theory that makes this a plausible idea?
I know I am going to get hammered for adding my two cents. Seems that is my curse in these forums but I am throwing my out my 2 cents anyway.
IF the universe is truly infinite. Something we may never know. Then the nature of infinity would lead me to a personal belief that it is much more likely for there to be other galactic clusters like those formed from our big bang as opposed to the contents of our big bang being all the matter there is and no matter exists in an infinite direction 70+ billion light years from where I am standing. For those that feel that all matter in the entire Universe came from our big bang the rest of this reply will not make sense to you. For those that feel that there may be other cosmic events that created matter outside the cosmic event that created our matter, ie our sun, our planet, then for those people I submit the un-likelihood to believe in other cosmic events like our big bang taking place and not believe in an infinite number of such events.
So for those who are able to think outside the box for a second and question What if there are other big bangs taking place 35,000 trillion light years away from us, the parallel universe takes on another meaning. Not one where 2 outcomes exist for every event but one that is deduced from an infinite number of habitable worlds. With an infinite number of habitable worlds existing for an infinite duration it becomes possible to conceptualize in theory only that an infinite number of possibilities carries with it an infinite number of planet Earth’s with a philosophical poster named Nipok and an infinite number or variations of events that create an infinite number of outcomes. Or an infinite number of repeats of your DNA sequence but in each one an infinite number of different lives are lived.
That is why people like to keep it simple and forget about the possibility of an infinite Universe and only concentrate on what we can see. Well if we give ourselves enough time and figure out a way to survive on this planet for another million years maybe we will find the answers to many of the current unknowns.
This message has been edited by nipok, 08-28-2004 11:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mission for Truth, posted 07-12-2004 1:52 PM Mission for Truth has not replied

  
Mike Holland
Member (Idle past 484 days)
Posts: 179
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 39 of 67 (137788)
08-29-2004 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Primordial Egg
08-27-2004 8:22 PM


Re: Decoherence
Thank you, PE. I started reading that article on decoherence, then decided to print it out (15 pages). Hate reading these things on the terminal. Get back later.
Mike.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Primordial Egg, posted 08-27-2004 8:22 PM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 67 (138034)
08-30-2004 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Christian7
08-27-2004 9:10 PM


Re: quantum suicide
What I mean't by your concious jumping universes is that if you kill yourself but an identical person who is you in another universe is still alive. Will your own self-conciousness be in that universe, would you see what your conter-part sees would you be that conterpart.
The universes only split once the measurement "Am I still alive?" is made, so it makes no sense to talk about consciousness "jumping" between universes.
Here's a good link I found which describes and defends MWI:
The Everett Interpretation
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Christian7, posted 08-27-2004 9:10 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Christian7, posted 08-31-2004 9:18 PM Primordial Egg has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 41 of 67 (138631)
08-31-2004 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Primordial Egg
08-30-2004 6:04 AM


Re: quantum suicide
please explain, I don't get it. Pretend like your explaining to a 7 year old cause I don't know what you mean and I don't feel like reading through all that faq.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Primordial Egg, posted 08-30-2004 6:04 AM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Primordial Egg, posted 09-01-2004 9:17 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 67 (138739)
09-01-2004 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Christian7
08-31-2004 9:18 PM


Re: quantum suicide
no.
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Christian7, posted 08-31-2004 9:18 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Christian7, posted 09-01-2004 4:53 PM Primordial Egg has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 43 of 67 (138885)
09-01-2004 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Primordial Egg
09-01-2004 9:17 AM


Re: quantum suicide
That was short and mean like.
Why won't you explain. I have no clue what yur talkin about. The intelegence part of my brain is on vacation so I need someone to explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Primordial Egg, posted 09-01-2004 9:17 AM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Primordial Egg, posted 09-01-2004 6:57 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 67 (138911)
09-01-2004 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Christian7
09-01-2004 4:53 PM


Re: quantum suicide
what's the point of me trying to explain when your brain's on vacation? Suggest you wait until it returns, take look at the links I've provided and do your own research (try googling "Everett", "MWI", "quantum suicide" etc).
I don't think you're serious.
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Christian7, posted 09-01-2004 4:53 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Christian7, posted 09-02-2004 1:02 PM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 45 of 67 (139171)
09-02-2004 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Primordial Egg
09-01-2004 6:57 PM


Re: quantum suicide
well, this topic died. Let's move on. Shall we? And I will take a look at those links.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Primordial Egg, posted 09-01-2004 6:57 PM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
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