Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Laws of Conservation?
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 46 of 86 (500377)
02-25-2009 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by grant111
02-25-2009 2:24 AM


grant111 writes:
A creator can't be created. That would defeat the whole concept. Anyway...
So, you're saying that because mankind has acted as a creator, we can't be created? Thank you for clearing that up.

I hunt for the truth
What you can do in my country and get away with:
Softdrugs? Legal!
Legal drinking age? 16!
Birth control (the pill)? Free!
Gay marriage? Legal!
Abortion? Legal!
Euthanasia? Legal!
Age of consent? 16 (14 if you have the parents permission)!
Yep, only one way down for us!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by grant111, posted 02-25-2009 2:24 AM grant111 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by grant111, posted 02-28-2009 3:44 PM Huntard has replied

  
grant111
Junior Member (Idle past 5506 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 02-14-2009


Message 47 of 86 (500634)
02-28-2009 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Huntard
02-25-2009 4:36 AM


Huntard writes:
So, you're saying that because mankind has acted as a creator, we can't be created? Thank you for clearing that up.
How has mankind acted as a creator? I think you are taking it out of context. If you are a caveman or anyone else lacking the technology to better observe your surroundings and you are wondering where you and all this stuff came from, you will then probably simply write it off as the workings of a higher power or a creator.
I'm not sure how mankind can act as a creator. Your thoughts and ideas are intangible. They are not real, so in reality (from a nihilistic point of view) you are not creating anything, stuff is just moving around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Huntard, posted 02-25-2009 4:36 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Huntard, posted 03-02-2009 7:19 AM grant111 has not replied

  
Black
Member (Idle past 5183 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 48 of 86 (500720)
03-02-2009 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Modulous
02-25-2009 3:21 AM


Modulous,
inflation is about the inflation of space itself. Why does this make one confident that there is space outside the universe? Are you saying that space is inflating into space? That doesn't seem to make sense.
If you take a balloon and blow it up it is going to inflate with a space inside and outside of it. So, inflation does support the idea of space outside of our universe. With that said, is our universe a isolated system in the same context as I asked before?
Edited by Black, : edit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Modulous, posted 02-25-2009 3:21 AM Modulous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Huntard, posted 03-02-2009 7:21 AM Black has not replied
 Message 51 by onifre, posted 03-02-2009 11:10 AM Black has not replied
 Message 55 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2009 1:54 PM Black has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 49 of 86 (500725)
03-02-2009 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by grant111
02-28-2009 3:44 PM


grant111 writes:
How has mankind acted as a creator?
Oh I don't know, how about by creating stuff?
I think you are taking it out of context.
Out of context? You only posted one sentence, how can I take that out of context?
If you are a caveman or anyone else lacking the technology to better observe your surroundings and you are wondering where you and all this stuff came from, you will then probably simply write it off as the workings of a higher power or a creator.
More than likely, since you yourself are also a creator.
I'm not sure how mankind can act as a creator. Your thoughts and ideas are intangible. They are not real, so in reality (from a nihilistic point of view) you are not creating anything, stuff is just moving around.
So, we haven't created anything? What's this thing I'm typing on then? Thin air?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by grant111, posted 02-28-2009 3:44 PM grant111 has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 50 of 86 (500726)
03-02-2009 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Black
03-02-2009 5:03 AM


Black writes:
If you take a balloon and blow it up it is going to inflate with a space inside and outside of it. So, inflation does support the idea of space outside of our universe.
No it doesn't, you misunderstood the analogy. There is no "outside of space".

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Black, posted 03-02-2009 5:03 AM Black has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 51 of 86 (500753)
03-02-2009 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Black
03-02-2009 5:03 AM


So, inflation does support the idea of space outside of our universe.
Black, the point you seem to be missing is that the universe IS space, therefore if there is "space outside the universe", it would be consider part of the universe and thus NOT "outside space".
There can exist no space "outside" of existance, existance is space, period.
With that said, is our universe a isolated system in the same context as I asked before?
The universe is an isolated system because there is nothing "outside" of it to interact with. It is self contained within the spacetime that IS the universe itself.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Black, posted 03-02-2009 5:03 AM Black has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Fosdick, posted 03-02-2009 11:37 AM onifre has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 52 of 86 (500761)
03-02-2009 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by onifre
03-02-2009 11:10 AM


Isolated universes
onfire writes:
The universe is an isolated system because there is nothing "outside" of it to interact with.
Hi onifre (what happened to onfire?),
Do you see why an intelligent person could make an issue with your "isolated system"? It makes such a person ask: Isolated from what?
It is self contained within the spacetime that IS the universe itself.
So then the universe is isolated from itself? Something isn't right here.
I'm holding out for parallel universes that intersect dimensionally. But I can assure you that I'm a cosmological lightweight. Who isn't? Nobody even knows yet what dark matter is or how much of it is out there.

I can see Lower Slobovia from my house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by onifre, posted 03-02-2009 11:10 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by onifre, posted 03-02-2009 1:34 PM Fosdick has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 53 of 86 (500784)
03-02-2009 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Fosdick
03-02-2009 11:37 AM


Re: Isolated universes
Hi Fosdick,
It makes such a person ask: Isolated from what?
I would then say that they missed the point. And try to reference them somewhere where a clearer explanation can be given, such as: Isolated System.
quote:
In the natural sciences an isolated system, as contrasted with a open system, is a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings.
The universe does not have any surroundings, therefore it is considered an isolated system in that sense.
So then the universe is isolated from itself?
It is an isolated system, not isolated as in,
Those are seperate definitions.
An isolated system is: "a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings.".
Edited by onifre, : greetings

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Fosdick, posted 03-02-2009 11:37 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Fosdick, posted 03-02-2009 1:47 PM onifre has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 54 of 86 (500787)
03-02-2009 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by onifre
03-02-2009 1:34 PM


Re: Isolated universes
onifre writes:
An isolated system is: "a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings."
I hate to be a real FosDICK here, but if you are saying that the universe is isolated from its surroundings, then you begging for the reply: WHAT SURROUNDINGS? (Friends of all parallel universes take heed: there is room for us in "the surroundings.")

I can see Lower Slobovia from my house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by onifre, posted 03-02-2009 1:34 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by lyx2no, posted 03-02-2009 2:45 PM Fosdick has not replied
 Message 57 by onifre, posted 03-02-2009 4:59 PM Fosdick has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 55 of 86 (500788)
03-02-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Black
03-02-2009 5:03 AM


If you take a balloon and blow it up it is going to inflate with a space inside and outside of it. So, inflation does support the idea of space outside of our universe.
No, it does not. The balloon analogy certainly leads you (and many thousands before you) to think that there is an "outside", and maybe an "inside", but that is a problem with the analogy. Surprisingly, the Universe isn't actually a balloon...
With that said, is our universe a isolated system in the same context as I asked before?
That all depends on what you are calling the "Universe"...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Black, posted 03-02-2009 5:03 AM Black has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Black, posted 03-12-2009 5:36 PM cavediver has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 56 of 86 (500793)
03-02-2009 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Fosdick
03-02-2009 1:47 PM


Re-word It Then
I hate to be a real FosDICK here, but if you are saying that the universe is isolated from its surroundings, then you begging for the reply: WHAT SURROUNDINGS?
An isolated system is one that has no interaction with other then itself. In the case of the Universe there can be no interaction with other then itself because there is no other.
Begging terminated.

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Fosdick, posted 03-02-2009 1:47 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 57 of 86 (500832)
03-02-2009 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Fosdick
03-02-2009 1:47 PM


Re: Isolated universes
I hate to be a real FosDICK here, but if you are saying that the universe is isolated from its surroundings,
You went from harping on the word outside to the word surroundings.
The universe is considered an isolated system becauses the energy in the system remains consistent. There is no "outside/surroundings" so, nothing from the outside affects the system (and vice versa). Even though energy may be changing from one form to another, energy is not lost from the system. The total quantity of matter and energy available in the universe is a fixed amount and never any more or less, thus it is an isolated system.
WHAT SURROUNDINGS? (Friends of all parallel universes take heed: there is room for us in "the surroundings.")
What would you call the space in between the parallel universes, the tiny microscopic space?

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Fosdick, posted 03-02-2009 1:47 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Fosdick, posted 03-02-2009 7:00 PM onifre has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 58 of 86 (500870)
03-02-2009 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by onifre
03-02-2009 4:59 PM


Re: Isolated universes
onifre writes:
What would you call the space in between the parallel universes, the tiny microscopic space?
What do you call the space between the first dimension and the second, or the third, or the fourth? And what makes you think there is space between parallel universes, anyway? "Space" is probably the biggest copout in science. It's like the word "truth."
btw: It's important to know that I don't know a goddamn thing about I'm talking about. That's why I post here, because nobody else does, either.

I can see Lower Slobovia from my house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by onifre, posted 03-02-2009 4:59 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by onifre, posted 03-02-2009 7:16 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 59 of 86 (500873)
03-02-2009 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Fosdick
03-02-2009 7:00 PM


Re: Isolated universes
btw: It's important to know that I don't know a goddamn thing about I'm talking about. That's why I post here, because nobody else does, either.
I can tell, by your actual attempt at answering the "space between parallel universes" question.
And what makes you think there is space between parallel universes, anyway?
I don't - "the space between the parallel universes" - was as nonsensical as - "the space outside the universe". I was hoping that would be realized when you read the question. I guess I should have tried a different question. Sorry
"Space" is probably the biggest copout in science. It's like the word "truth."
The only time space is misused is when the physics term spacetime is taken into a philosophical discussion. That is when musings such as "space outside the universe" gets thrown into the discussion. If a clear understanding of what is meant by spacetime is not known to someone, it can get confusing when trying to conceptualize "nothingness". Which is where I think questions like "outside the universe" come from, just a lack of knowledge on what spacetime is.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Fosdick, posted 03-02-2009 7:00 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
RCS
Member (Idle past 2608 days)
Posts: 48
From: Delhi, Delhi, India
Joined: 07-04-2007


Message 60 of 86 (500901)
03-03-2009 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by grant111
02-14-2009 4:26 AM


I have a basic understanding of the law of conservation of energy. It pretty much says that something can't come from nothing.
Good.
If you think back to the very beginning of things wouldn't there be a time where nothing existed?
Not if you think out box, sans bible redux.
If there was a time when nothing existed then how does anything exist today?
There never was such a time.
Doesn't the "existence" of "things" today violate the law of conservation of energy, because in the beginning nothing existed?
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by grant111, posted 02-14-2009 4:26 AM grant111 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024