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Author Topic:   Laws of Conservation?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 16 of 86 (499438)
02-18-2009 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by JaysonD
02-18-2009 3:01 PM


Hi Jason D,
Thanks, I guess I was just thinking of the big bang as the source of matter in the universe and not time as well.
There is no 'source' of matter, matter is the result of our universe having the laws it has. There could, theoretically, exist a universe in which no matter exists.
So my question now is why do we assume the big bang created time.
Time is not a thing in that sense. Time is a unit of measurement relevant only to those who can measure it. To the universe there is no 'time' in the functional sense. It is only a thing to us.
The BB did not create anything, things exist due to the BB but only because the BB is the moment that spacetime expanded and cooled off enough to be able to form matter.
In other words is time a function of matter and energy or could there be some other type of universe with a whole bunch of time but no matter or energy.
Time is a function to humans that can use it as a unit of measurement. In that sense 'time' does not exist beyond our usage of it.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by JaysonD, posted 02-18-2009 3:01 PM JaysonD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by JaysonD, posted 02-18-2009 5:38 PM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 17 of 86 (499443)
02-18-2009 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Huntard
02-18-2009 3:07 PM


Hi Huntard,
Without time, there is no universe. Without space, there is also no universe.
Pardon the minor quibble my Dutch friend, but I don't think this reads properly.
If there was no cosmological expansion there would be no space/time, thus no observable universe. Before this - the BB(cosmological expansion) - there still existed an infinitely dense and infinitely curved universe.
Without matter, there is nothing inside the universe.
Lets define 'nothing' though - Quantum fluctuations, particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles - surely this is 'something'?
And just to keep it on topic and bump the thread a bit, particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles do appear to violate the laws of conservation, if only for a short time.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Huntard, posted 02-18-2009 3:07 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Huntard, posted 02-18-2009 5:25 PM onifre has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 18 of 86 (499447)
02-18-2009 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by onifre
02-18-2009 5:05 PM


Yes, you're right of course, I was trying to keep it simple for Jayson, not to confuse him too much.
And to drag it off topic (), and give you something to fear for my eternal soul. Abortion AND euthanasia are legal here as well.
So, what have we got so far?
Softdrugs? Legal!
Legal drinking age? 16!
Birth control (the pill)? Free!
Gay marriage? Legal!
Abortion? Legal!
Euthanasia? Legal!
Age of consent? 16 (14 if you have the parents permission)!
Yep, only one way down for us!
I think I'll update my sig

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by onifre, posted 02-18-2009 5:05 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Theodoric, posted 02-18-2009 5:30 PM Huntard has replied
 Message 22 by onifre, posted 02-18-2009 6:17 PM Huntard has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 19 of 86 (499450)
02-18-2009 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Huntard
02-18-2009 5:25 PM


Is it heaven??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Huntard, posted 02-18-2009 5:25 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Huntard, posted 02-18-2009 5:40 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
JaysonD
Junior Member (Idle past 5514 days)
Posts: 12
Joined: 02-26-2009


Message 20 of 86 (499453)
02-18-2009 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by onifre
02-18-2009 4:41 PM


Never mind, I'm gettion off the topic
Edited by JaysonD, : see post

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by onifre, posted 02-18-2009 4:41 PM onifre has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 21 of 86 (499454)
02-18-2009 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Theodoric
02-18-2009 5:30 PM


I wouldn't say heaven, but life here is pretty relaxed. Despite all the suffering I should endure for endorsing all these travesties, my life's been pretty pleasant so far.
Ok, enough off topic, let's get back to the real issue at hand.

I hunt for the truth
What you can do in my country and get away with:
Softdrugs? Legal!
Legal drinking age? 16!
Birth control (the pill)? Free!
Gay marriage? Legal!
Abortion? Legal!
Euthanasia? Legal!
Age of consent? 16 (14 if you have the parents permission)!
Yep, only one way down for us!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Theodoric, posted 02-18-2009 5:30 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 22 of 86 (499463)
02-18-2009 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Huntard
02-18-2009 5:25 PM


Softdrugs? Legal!
Awesome!
Legal drinking age? 16!
Clearly awesome!
Birth control (the pill)? Free!
Really awesome!
Gay marriage? Legal!
In memory of Hoot-mon/Fosdick...yuck!
Abortion? Legal!
This is awesome for us road comics!
Euthanasia? Legal!
This is awesome to alleviate traffic!
Age of consent? 16 (14 if you have the parents permission)!
Aweso...wait, what?! Ok this one is a bit fucked up, but then again, who am I to judge.
Yep, only one way down for us!
I'm coming with you, grab a couple of parentally consented 14 year olds for the trip!

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

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Replies to this message:
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grant111
Junior Member (Idle past 5506 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 02-14-2009


Message 23 of 86 (499504)
02-18-2009 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by cavediver
02-14-2009 8:18 AM


So you cannot point to a time where 'nothing' exists. There is no moment when there is nothing and then a moment when there is something. This is nonsense. There are only moments where there is something, for moments themselves are 'something'. It is quite possible that the Universe has an earliest time - but this does not represent a beginning to the Universe - just a beginning to our idea of time. Just as the North Pole is the beginning of the lines of longitude, but it is not a beginning of the Earth.
Are you implying that there is infinite space and time? If there is infinite space and time how can you represent time and space as changing if there is no reference point or point of origin at which space and time can increase or decrease from? How does space and time or anything else change if it is infinite? Doesn't there have to be a point at which something is zero?
Edited by grant111, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-19-2009 10:16 AM grant111 has not replied
 Message 25 by onifre, posted 02-19-2009 1:03 PM grant111 has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 86 (499592)
02-19-2009 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by grant111
02-18-2009 9:36 PM


Are you implying that there is infinite space and time?
No, not infinite. The implication is that it is unbounded.
Spacetime is a 4d manifold that is finite but it is also unbounded.
For an anology of what that means, consider the surface of the Earth (just the surface). The surface of the Earth is a 2d manifold that is also finite yet unbounded. It is finite because there not an infinite amount of surface, but since you could walk in a straight line forever, it is unbounded.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 25 of 86 (499622)
02-19-2009 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by grant111
02-18-2009 9:36 PM


grant111 writes:
cavediver writes:
It is quite possible that the Universe has an earliest time - but this does not represent a beginning to the Universe - just a beginning to our idea of time.
If there is infinite space and time how can you represent time and space as changing if there is no reference point or point of origin at which space and time can increase or decrease from?
Spacetime does have a point of origin, the Big Bang(cosmological expansion). What does not have a point of origin - currently - is the universe, because the universe does not require spacetime to exist for it(the universe) to exist.
Current cosmological models show spacetime expanding from a singularity(infinite density - infinite curvature). This does not mean that that is the origin of the universe, it's just as far back as our current mathematical theories take us.
One proposed theory that gets around the singularity is the Hawkings No-Boundary Universe theory.
Which you can read about it here: No Boundary Universe
quote:
A universe that is finite in size but did not begin with a singularity is the result of one attempt to combine aspects of general relativity and quantum mechanics. The history of this no-boundary universe in imaginary time is like the surface of Earth, with the Big Bang equivalent to Earth’s North Pole and the size of the universe increasing with imaginary time as you head south toward the equator.
A proposal first advanced by Stephen Hawking and Jim Hartle, the no-boundary universe is one in which the universe does not start with a singularity. It uses American physicist Richard Feynman’s proposal to treat quantum mechanics as a sum over histories, meaning that a particle does not have one history in space-time but instead follows every possible path to reach its current state. By summing these historiesa difficult process that must be done by treating time as imaginaryyou can find the probability that the particle passes through a particular point.
Hope this helped.
- Oni

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

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Black
Member (Idle past 5183 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 26 of 86 (500243)
02-24-2009 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by cavediver
02-14-2009 8:18 AM


cavediver,
So if energy is lost from a isolated system, the law of conservation of energy is broken?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by cavediver, posted 02-14-2009 8:18 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by cavediver, posted 02-24-2009 4:46 PM Black has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 27 of 86 (500304)
02-24-2009 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Black
02-24-2009 4:13 AM


Lost?
So if energy is lost from a isolated system, the law of conservation of energy is broken?
What do you mean by "Lost"?
If energy is lost to "somewhere" else that is not part of the original "isolated" system then, by definition, the original system was not isolated was it?
If by "lost" you mean dissappears altogether then yes that would break the law of the conservation of energy.

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 Message 26 by Black, posted 02-24-2009 4:13 AM Black has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by onifre, posted 02-24-2009 4:18 PM Straggler has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 28 of 86 (500310)
02-24-2009 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Straggler
02-24-2009 1:55 PM


Re: Lost?
Just to add,
If by "lost" you mean dissappears altogether then yes that would break the law of the conservation of energy.
Which is what happens to virtual particles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Straggler, posted 02-24-2009 1:55 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by cavediver, posted 02-24-2009 4:50 PM onifre has replied
 Message 32 by Straggler, posted 02-24-2009 6:02 PM onifre has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 29 of 86 (500313)
02-24-2009 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Black
02-24-2009 4:13 AM


So if energy is lost from a isolated system, the law of conservation of energy is broken?
As Straggler has implied, this simply implies that your system is not isolated in some way - hole in your box, wormhole out of your box, leaks into the larger (higher dimensional) bulk space, magic...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Black, posted 02-24-2009 4:13 AM Black has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Black, posted 02-24-2009 7:38 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 30 of 86 (500314)
02-24-2009 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by onifre
02-24-2009 4:18 PM


Re: Lost?
Which is what happens to virtual particles.
Hmmm, not really Whatever you read about virtual particles has a good chance of simply being wrong - scientists will often make up any old crap if it helps "explain" a hard concept - believe me

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by onifre, posted 02-24-2009 4:18 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by onifre, posted 02-24-2009 5:13 PM cavediver has replied

  
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