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Author | Topic: Laws of Conservation? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Hi Jason D,
Thanks, I guess I was just thinking of the big bang as the source of matter in the universe and not time as well. There is no 'source' of matter, matter is the result of our universe having the laws it has. There could, theoretically, exist a universe in which no matter exists.
So my question now is why do we assume the big bang created time. Time is not a thing in that sense. Time is a unit of measurement relevant only to those who can measure it. To the universe there is no 'time' in the functional sense. It is only a thing to us. The BB did not create anything, things exist due to the BB but only because the BB is the moment that spacetime expanded and cooled off enough to be able to form matter.
In other words is time a function of matter and energy or could there be some other type of universe with a whole bunch of time but no matter or energy. Time is a function to humans that can use it as a unit of measurement. In that sense 'time' does not exist beyond our usage of it. "I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks "I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Hi Huntard,
Without time, there is no universe. Without space, there is also no universe. Pardon the minor quibble my Dutch friend, but I don't think this reads properly. If there was no cosmological expansion there would be no space/time, thus no observable universe. Before this - the BB(cosmological expansion) - there still existed an infinitely dense and infinitely curved universe.
Without matter, there is nothing inside the universe. Lets define 'nothing' though - Quantum fluctuations, particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles - surely this is 'something'? And just to keep it on topic and bump the thread a bit, particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles do appear to violate the laws of conservation, if only for a short time. Edited by onifre, : No reason given. "I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks "I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Yes, you're right of course, I was trying to keep it simple for Jayson, not to confuse him too much.
And to drag it off topic (), and give you something to fear for my eternal soul. Abortion AND euthanasia are legal here as well. So, what have we got so far? Softdrugs? Legal!Legal drinking age? 16! Birth control (the pill)? Free! Gay marriage? Legal! Abortion? Legal! Euthanasia? Legal! Age of consent? 16 (14 if you have the parents permission)! Yep, only one way down for us! I think I'll update my sig I hunt for the truth
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Is it heaven??
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JaysonD Junior Member (Idle past 5514 days) Posts: 12 Joined: |
Never mind, I'm gettion off the topic
Edited by JaysonD, : see post
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
I wouldn't say heaven, but life here is pretty relaxed. Despite all the suffering I should endure for endorsing all these travesties, my life's been pretty pleasant so far.
Ok, enough off topic, let's get back to the real issue at hand. I hunt for the truth What you can do in my country and get away with: Softdrugs? Legal!Legal drinking age? 16! Birth control (the pill)? Free! Gay marriage? Legal! Abortion? Legal! Euthanasia? Legal! Age of consent? 16 (14 if you have the parents permission)! Yep, only one way down for us!
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Softdrugs? Legal! Awesome!
Legal drinking age? 16! Clearly awesome!
Birth control (the pill)? Free! Really awesome!
Gay marriage? Legal! In memory of Hoot-mon/Fosdick...yuck!
Abortion? Legal! This is awesome for us road comics!
Euthanasia? Legal! This is awesome to alleviate traffic!
Age of consent? 16 (14 if you have the parents permission)! Aweso...wait, what?! Ok this one is a bit fucked up, but then again, who am I to judge.
Yep, only one way down for us! I'm coming with you, grab a couple of parentally consented 14 year olds for the trip! "I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks "I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky
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grant111 Junior Member (Idle past 5506 days) Posts: 5 Joined: |
So you cannot point to a time where 'nothing' exists. There is no moment when there is nothing and then a moment when there is something. This is nonsense. There are only moments where there is something, for moments themselves are 'something'. It is quite possible that the Universe has an earliest time - but this does not represent a beginning to the Universe - just a beginning to our idea of time. Just as the North Pole is the beginning of the lines of longitude, but it is not a beginning of the Earth. Are you implying that there is infinite space and time? If there is infinite space and time how can you represent time and space as changing if there is no reference point or point of origin at which space and time can increase or decrease from? How does space and time or anything else change if it is infinite? Doesn't there have to be a point at which something is zero? Edited by grant111, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Are you implying that there is infinite space and time? No, not infinite. The implication is that it is unbounded. Spacetime is a 4d manifold that is finite but it is also unbounded. For an anology of what that means, consider the surface of the Earth (just the surface). The surface of the Earth is a 2d manifold that is also finite yet unbounded. It is finite because there not an infinite amount of surface, but since you could walk in a straight line forever, it is unbounded.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
grant111 writes: cavediver writes: It is quite possible that the Universe has an earliest time - but this does not represent a beginning to the Universe - just a beginning to our idea of time. If there is infinite space and time how can you represent time and space as changing if there is no reference point or point of origin at which space and time can increase or decrease from? Spacetime does have a point of origin, the Big Bang(cosmological expansion). What does not have a point of origin - currently - is the universe, because the universe does not require spacetime to exist for it(the universe) to exist. Current cosmological models show spacetime expanding from a singularity(infinite density - infinite curvature). This does not mean that that is the origin of the universe, it's just as far back as our current mathematical theories take us. One proposed theory that gets around the singularity is the Hawkings No-Boundary Universe theory. Which you can read about it here: No Boundary Universe quote: Hope this helped. - Oni "I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks "I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky
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Black Member (Idle past 5183 days) Posts: 77 Joined: |
cavediver,
So if energy is lost from a isolated system, the law of conservation of energy is broken?
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So if energy is lost from a isolated system, the law of conservation of energy is broken? What do you mean by "Lost"? If energy is lost to "somewhere" else that is not part of the original "isolated" system then, by definition, the original system was not isolated was it? If by "lost" you mean dissappears altogether then yes that would break the law of the conservation of energy.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Just to add,
If by "lost" you mean dissappears altogether then yes that would break the law of the conservation of energy.
Which is what happens to virtual particles.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3643 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
So if energy is lost from a isolated system, the law of conservation of energy is broken? As Straggler has implied, this simply implies that your system is not isolated in some way - hole in your box, wormhole out of your box, leaks into the larger (higher dimensional) bulk space, magic...
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3643 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Which is what happens to virtual particles. Hmmm, not really Whatever you read about virtual particles has a good chance of simply being wrong - scientists will often make up any old crap if it helps "explain" a hard concept - believe me
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