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Author Topic:   To all amateur physicists - a simple physics problem
Maxwell's Demon
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 59
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 16 of 19 (128279)
07-28-2004 2:36 AM


Bump!
Since Eta said he'd come with a solution to this problem I thought I'd bump it.
In doing so I'll also propose a new attempt at a solution.
I'll start off from the realisation that the problem could be reduced to the form:
a = G*M/r^2.
This can be rewritten:
r^2*dv = G*M*dt
Which can be rewritten as:
(A) dt = (1/GM)*r^2*dv
Now we know (of course) that:
dr/dt = v
Which can be rewritten as:
(B) v*dt = dr.
Now inserting (A) into (B) we gain:
(1/(G*M))*r^2*v*dv = dr
Which can be rewritten as:
(1/(G*M))*v*dv = dr/r^2
Integrating from v = 0 to v = u on the left hand side and from r = A to r = R (R < A) on the right hand side we gain:
(1/(2*G*M))*u^2 = 1/R - 1/A
Which gives us "u":
u = sqrt(2*G*M)*sqrt(1/R - 1/A) = dR/dt
Which yields:
dt = dR/(sqrt(2*G*M)*sqrt(1/R - 1/A) = K*dR*R/sqrt(1 - R/A)
{Where K = 1/sqrt(2*G*M)}
What follows is a rather tedious calculation where I find the antiderivative of the function on the right hand side.
In this I perform a substitution of variables such that R = p^2 (don't ask why ):
I gain:
- sqrt(1 - p^2/A)*(A*p^2 + A^2*p + A^3)
Which is the primitive function expressed in p.
Integrating (C) from t = 0 to t= t and from p = P to p = 0 we now get:
t = 2*K*[- sqrt( 1 - P^2/A)*(A*P^2 + A^2*P + A^3) + A^3]
Where P^2 = A, so t = 2*K*A^3
t = 2*A^3/sqrt(2*G*M);
I think this is right... but then again I thought my other solution was correct as well, so I remain skeptic.

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Eta_Carinae, posted 07-28-2004 3:24 PM Maxwell's Demon has replied

  
Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4393 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 17 of 19 (128418)
07-28-2004 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Maxwell's Demon
07-28-2004 2:36 AM


Sorry I have been delinquent. I am really busy at work right now.
I will post the correct solution in by the weekend.
I will tell you the answer though.
t = (Pi * r^3/2)/(G(M+m))
Remember their initial separation was 2r. This gets rid of the numerical constants in the final answer - except the Pi of course.
This message has been edited by Eta_Carinae, 07-28-2004 02:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Maxwell's Demon, posted 07-28-2004 2:36 AM Maxwell's Demon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Maxwell's Demon, posted 07-29-2004 2:55 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

  
Maxwell's Demon
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 59
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 18 of 19 (128659)
07-29-2004 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Eta_Carinae
07-28-2004 3:24 PM


Victory!
I re-checked my calculations and realised my final integration was in error. I think you missed a square root in your answer though.
I'll take my solution from the top.
Solution:
If we are allowed to assume that the collision will occur at the centre of gravity for the two point masses, then we can define two vectors, r1 and r2, such that m1*r1 + m2*r2 = 0.
The vectors are therefore the vectors leading from respective point to the centre of gravity.
Also defining r = r1 - r2 we can write the equation of motion for one of the particles as:
m1*r1'' = Gm1m2/r^2 (where ' denotes the derivative with respect to time).
Using that r2 = -(m1/m2)r1, and that [b]r = r1 - r2 we can eliminate r1 from the equation of motion.
We get:
r'' = G(m1 + m2)/r^2, where I'll let M = m1 + m2 from now on.
This can be rewritten as:
(1) dv = dt*G*M/r^2
But we also know that:
(2) dt = dr/v (since v = dr/dt)
We can eliminate dt by insering (2) into (1).
We get:
dv = (G*M/v)*dr/r^2
Which can be rewritten:
dv*v = (G*M)*dr/r^2
We intregrate once from v = 0 to v = u on the left hand side and from r = 2a to r = R on the right hand side.
(1/2)*u^2 = (G*M)*(1/R - 1/2a)
Which gives us:
u = dR/dt = sqrt((2*G*M)*(1/R - 1/2a))
This gives us
dt = dR/sqrt((2*G*M)*(1/R - 1/2a)).
Integrating this from t=0 to t=t' on the left hand side and from R = 2a to R = 0 on the right hand side we get:
sqrt(2*G*M)*t(R) = (2a)^(3/2)(ArcSin(1) - ArcSin(-1))
Which gets us:
t(R) = pi*a^(3/2)/sqrt(G*M)
There... That has to be right!
Oh, I used a table of indefinate integrals to solve the final integral. I hope that's not considered cheating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Eta_Carinae, posted 07-28-2004 3:24 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Eta_Carinae, posted 07-29-2004 5:45 PM Maxwell's Demon has not replied

  
Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4393 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 19 of 19 (128728)
07-29-2004 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Maxwell's Demon
07-29-2004 2:55 PM


LOL
You're right - I left the square root of the denominator. I did realise this I was just sloppy when I posted yesterday.
You have the correct answer.
There is a quicker way of doing it actually which I'll post sometime.
And no - it is not cheating to use a table. I do it all the time - I have forgotten most of them it's much easier to use tables.
This message has been edited by Eta_Carinae, 07-29-2004 04:47 PM
This message has been edited by Eta_Carinae, 07-29-2004 04:48 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Maxwell's Demon, posted 07-29-2004 2:55 PM Maxwell's Demon has not replied

  
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