Where did the speck/singularity/thing come from?

Hi Melchoir, what do you think? Strings? Plankes time/Planke size?
Quauntum foam? Math is a description of reality, but not reality. I am beginning to think that the Universe and everything in it is all one stuff eminating from the mind of *insert you prefered diety here. Is there such a thing as a objective reality when you get down to the "nitty gritty"? Your thoughts? My personal thoughts are that at the core of reality it is zero. Nothing. Which is exactly what preceded the Big Bang. Nothing there but a probablity wave function that is propagated into existance by itself, for itself. God, BEING itself manifesting exisitance by actualizing/ observing all possiblities. Or not. Just more invalid speculation for your reading enjoyment. *edit to correct spelling.[This message has been edited by 1.61803, 04-15-2004]

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

we might just have the beginnings of a discussion here instead of a worthless point scoring debate about nothing that can be proven so why bother arguing...so what do YOU think happened to the nothing ???

I am the nothing, I'm what you seek, I'm what you were and I'm what you'll become.

you must be God then, well I'm glad you popped in I've got a few questions...By your statement are you then saying that you are solely representative of the whole evolutionary process from nothing to nothing and that it's all about the individuals perception of what was, is and will be in which case objective reality is a misconception and we are all just random thoughts in a vaccuum interacting with each other under the guise of a collective illusory subjective reality which is totally sustained by your will

Well, I think you are confusing two things.First, there are models which allows us in a simple way to find patterns in what we observe of the universe, and find useful ways to predict those patterns elsewhere. For example, we have models of how electical and magnetical fields work, and from that we can build computers. Since computer demonstrably exist, it is not a matter of opinion wether the model describes reality or not.Your may have opinions on what the model tells you, but unless you can show objectively that it's incorrect, your opinions will not budge it.What IS an opinion is any truths regarding what the whole thing actually is all about when you aren't satisfied by mere models, and want the real deal. For example, what does a quark look like, where can you find god, do we have a real soul, why does music sound so heavenly. Essentially, you will need to form your own way to observe the 'real' world. This is where you should search your own mind.But with science, it has been demonstrated time and time again that everyone, regardless of opinion, can make observations and actually agree to some things, which is to me a quite good argument that the whole of reality isn't just a personal preference.

I hope this doesn't get too off-topic, though.I follow the current speculations/experiments with interest regardless of which explanations they want to further, but I have to say that string theory has a certain degree of elegance that I like. However, I have this feeling that it might be a bit too wierd for most people and not really explain everything. Some people will inevitably ask what created the strings, and not take any other answer than Some Other Theory.Regarding my spirituality; I find the concept of a God extremely strange considering my own lifetime of experience. I'm more of the opinion that the world makes a really good shot at being absolutely amazing on it's own, and this whole God thing is neither needed nor possible to conclude from what I see, hear, feel and think. I've recently taken quite a lot of time to think my life through (school, love, losses) and I've actually (and I'm not ashamed to say this, quite the countrary) asked both straight out and in my head: "God, what's the deal here, really?".So I've sort of settled in nicely with some very strange mix of philosophies ranging from Stephen Hawkins to Dalai Lama to Jesus. I don't consider things perfect, but neither do I demand them to be.

I'm pretty much of the same opinion......dunno bout strings though[This message has been edited by RingoKid, 04-15-2004]

By definition...Having unlimited or universal power and authority. What does that have to do with lying? Which God does not do.

You dont know what happen post big bang either...its all speculation! Please stop acting as though we know what was happening (in your mind) 64 billion years ago...we dont know for sure what was going on right here on earth 10,000 years ago. Pleeese!

You don't know what was going on five minutes ago, by the same argument. How do you know your memories are real?At som point, you have to admit that substantiating your actions 5 minutes ago and substantiating models about 10,000 years ago or 16 billion years ago is the same problem, philosophically. But somehow I doubt you go around filled with doubt that you were alive 5 minutes ago. The only time you feel the need to highlight the limitations of historicity is when the conclusions threaten your religious dogma, isn't it?

That is the most rediculous statement Ive ever heard. You should stay away from movies like the matrix and such...its warping your mind.

You both have a point. There will always be a certain degree of uncertanity about the past. However, in order to ever get anything done, we have to settle for 'as sure as we can be'.We aren't talking about details here. We are not looking for the name of every single person that has ever lived. We are looking at overall changes that CAN be and ARE detected consistently in our observations.The big bang has a lot of evidence which points very strongly towards it being true. This is not a guarantee that we know everything about everything at the moment, but that's not what we are after.So while the evidence we have for events that happened 5 minutes ago are indeed more abundant than for events that happened 10000 years ago, this is not a reason to discredit either of them.The reason the big bang theory is so useful is that we can test it, and it tells us stuff that we can actually use to make further predictions. It *has* to be at least somewhat right, otherwise we would find that it doesn't make the right predictions.

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You dont know what happen post big bang either...its all speculation!

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do you mean pre ???...cos we and all we see are the evidence of post big bang

Rhineholder, you are right we dont know what was going on 10k years ago.
But the EVIDENCE of geology,archeology,and every field of science you care to name has assembled a enormous amount of data that has been scrutinized and picked apart by experts in these fields. And out of all this data and work you expect men to just throw they're hands up and say nah, it aint so cuz it dont jive with the holy book. LOL!@!!
What ever pilgrim. I personally went to NYC Musem of natural history and saw the bones of T. Rex perhaps you should go have a look for your self with your own eyes. #edit Ringo to Rhine my bad.[This message has been edited by 1.61803, 04-17-2004]

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Around here we address arguments, we don't dismiss them. Ridiculous or not I find it telling you were unable to refute it.It's ridiculous because it's the logical extension of your position, which is itself ridiculous.