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Author Topic:   one step at a time
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5707 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 12 of 64 (23874)
11-23-2002 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by forgiven
11-22-2002 8:59 PM


Those are not givens in "Creatio ex nihilo"
First there is God whose existence is transcendent.
Then you have nothing, most neatly expressed by a mathematical zero.
Then you have the universe, including you.
That nothing exists while at the same time the universe exists, makes the existence of the universe an uncertainty.
That nothing still exists while the universe exists also makes it possible for new things to be created within the universe.
In between nothing existing and the universe existing, there is what ought to exist. There is no morality or freedom possible in a universe that "just" exists, a universe that doesn't do anything to merit it's existence.
This sort of thing is popular among catholics, when they talk about the universe being all just a dream, in referring to the uncertainty of the existence of the universe. It also is connected to modern science in theories where things only exist "on average".
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by forgiven, posted 11-22-2002 8:59 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by forgiven, posted 11-23-2002 9:49 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5707 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 14 of 64 (23892)
11-23-2002 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by forgiven
11-23-2002 9:49 AM


Actually God in this line of argument is just "the neccessary existence", there aren't really other attributes of God in this example except for His neccessary existence.
So to rephrase there is a neccessary existence, there is nothing, and there is the universe's existence. It's not a possibility that there is a neccesary existence, since neccessary and possible are mutually ecxlusive terms. You just have to assume the neccessary existence, you can't argue it from other causes or principles.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by forgiven, posted 11-23-2002 9:49 AM forgiven has replied

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 Message 15 by forgiven, posted 11-23-2002 11:22 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5707 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 16 of 64 (23914)
11-23-2002 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by forgiven
11-23-2002 11:22 AM


Well no, but if you argue it from other causes or principles then that would inevitably undermine it's neccesity seems to me.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by forgiven, posted 11-23-2002 11:22 AM forgiven has replied

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 Message 18 by forgiven, posted 11-23-2002 1:25 PM Syamsu has not replied

  
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