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Author Topic:   On the causes of sexual orientation
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 76 of 108 (472588)
06-23-2008 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Taz
06-22-2008 10:56 PM


Re: comments
Nosey & Taz, given what you say, then:
1. Explain to me precisely what causes homosexual orientation. That would settle the argument once and for all.
2. When choice of sexual orientation becomes a therapeutic option, do you suppose the flux of conversion will flow from hetero to homo or the other way around?
3. Is choosing to be Catholic the same thing as choosing to be gay? (Because that is what you're implying when you invoke the religion/Constitution principle to support your same-sex/Constitution argument.)
”HM

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 Message 75 by Taz, posted 06-22-2008 10:56 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by NosyNed, posted 06-23-2008 1:08 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 77 of 108 (472591)
06-23-2008 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Fosdick
06-23-2008 12:35 PM


Causes
Explain to me precisely what causes homosexual orientation. That would settle the argument once and for all.
We don't know precisely what causes any sexual orientation. We do have pretty reasonable evidence that it is genetic and developmentally influenced. The influences seem to be the same for the entire range of orientations.
You have ignored this over and over and have offered no reason to not accept this.
Your idea that being raised by a gay couple may influence the orientation of a child is something that I have never seen any support for whatsoever. And I'm sure you don't have an once of support for it.
In fact, I think (but don't know) that twin studies suggest that this is clearly wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Fosdick, posted 06-23-2008 12:35 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
Nausicaa13
Inactive Junior Member


Message 78 of 108 (472814)
06-24-2008 8:17 PM


Hoot Mon,
there are many instances of homosexuality in animals that are quite natural. The highest occurrence of this is in the Canada Goose population. I believe it is twenty-something percent of the population that that is homosexual; and there is a reason. As you might know, Canada Geese mate for life, so if one partner dies, the other will leave its young and stay with the dead mate. The homosexual couple will then come in and care for the young and/or the "widowed" mate. This is only one example of how homosexuality is helpful to the animal community, not "detrimental."
-Nausicaa13

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Deftil
Member (Idle past 4455 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 79 of 108 (473027)
06-26-2008 3:19 PM


More recent info on the topic
Sexual Antagonism: A genetic theory of homosexuality (Slate)
Posted Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 8:04 AM ET
The theory explains that male homosexuality could persist due to the increase in inclusive fitness to those with genes for it.
quote:
...the female relatives of gay men produce children at a higher rate than other women do... among these female relatives, those related to the gay man's mother produce children at a higher rate than do those related to his father.
quote:
It holds that a gene can be reproductively harmful to one sex as long as it's helpful to the other. The gene for male homosexuality persists because it promotes”and is passed down through”high rates of procreation among gay men's mothers, sisters, and aunts.
The theory has some implications about how we would think about homosexuality including the ideas that it would be sustained by NS, that homosexuality would not be a choice as the genes code for attraction to men, and that it would be beneficial to society as a whole.
quote:
...you can't culturally eradicate the gay minority. It's sustained by genetics and natural selection.
quote:
We're talking about genes for "androphilia," i.e., attraction to men. The importance of the genes lies in what they do not to men but to women, by increasing reproductive output so powerfully that these women compensate for the reduced output among their male relatives. You can't isolate gay men as a puzzle or problem anymore. You have to see them as part of a bigger, stronger, enduring phenomenon.
quote:
The study's press release concludes that "homosexuality should not be viewed as a detrimental trait (due to the reduced male fecundity it entails), but, rather, should be considered within the wider evolutionary framework of a characteristic with gender-specific benefits."
quote:
...the benefits aren't really confined to women. They protect society as a whole. The authors' computations indicate that as a society's birthrate falls, female carriers of androphilic genes account for a larger share of the output. In short, the genes provide a "buffer effect" against extinction.
The actual research paper is available for free here: oi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002282]-->Sexually Antagonistic Selection in Human Male Homosexuality (PLoS One)
Published: June 18, 2008
The above Slate article states that the theory does not account for female homosexuality which has been attributed to nongenetic factors in a recent study, however, if we look at the article regarding that, we still see that biological and environmental factors are said to be involved, resulting once again in the conclusion that homosexuality isn't a choice. This article is actually just another about the same study as the one I posted in Message 21.
Sexual Reorientation: The gay culture war is about to turn chemical (Slate)
Posted Wednesday, June 18, 2008, at 8:29 AM ET
quote:
Study after study found differences between gay and straight brains. Homosexuality came to be viewed less as a lifestyle and more as an orientation, too deeply rooted to be freely rejected. Gay activists embraced and trumpeted these studies. Public opinion shifted.
quote:
In overall symmetry and amygdala activity, the brains of gay men resembled the brains of straight women, whereas the brains of lesbians resembled the brains of straight men
quote:
It's not just a matter of preferring men or women. The broader implication, one expert argues, is that "in gay men, the brain is feminized."
Remember that as stated in the article in New Scientist about the study, that parameters were chosen that were likely to be set at birth, and not likely to be changed during the lifetime.
Sexual Reorientation: The gay culture war is about to turn chemical goes on to state:
quote:
If the study's design rules out learned influences, and if the results in women rule out genetics, that leaves what the authors call "hormonal influences" or noncognitive differences in the infant environment. According to the Guardian, the same research team has "begun another study to investigate brain symmetry in newborn babies, to see if it can be used to predict their future sexual orientation." If it can, that will scratch postnatal factors off the list, and the search will narrow to hormones in the womb. Already, the authors point to evidence that homosexuality may be caused by "under-exposure to prenatal androgens" in males and "over-exposure" in females.
The research paper that this is based on is available here: PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects (PNAS) but to see more than the abstract you must pay for the paper.

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Fosdick, posted 07-15-2008 10:53 AM Deftil has replied

  
Nausicaa13
Inactive Junior Member


Message 80 of 108 (473240)
06-27-2008 9:16 PM


There's also a book called "Biological Exuberance" that has a lot of that information in case any of you are interested...

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 81 of 108 (475343)
07-15-2008 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Deftil
06-26-2008 3:19 PM


Re: More recent info on the topic
Deftil, your post is right on topic and offers the best explanation yet for the origin of homosexual orientation: Sexual Antagonism: A genetic theory of homosexuality (Slate). Apparently, womb chemistry can adversely affect brain development and show up in PET & MRI exams.
Now I am more convinced than ever that homosexuality is an aberration caused by developmental difficulties that might be treatable and even reversible with proper chemotherapy. I think these findings offer the first glimmers of real hope for homosexuals who seek normality and the social benefits thereof. (Why marry your best man when the bride has all the right equipment to make you happy ever after?)
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Deftil, posted 06-26-2008 3:19 PM Deftil has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Deftil, posted 07-15-2008 10:18 PM Fosdick has replied
 Message 88 by Wounded King, posted 07-16-2008 5:53 AM Fosdick has not replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 82 of 108 (475345)
07-15-2008 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Nausicaa13
06-24-2008 8:17 PM


Of eggs and wombs
Nausicaa13 writes:
Hoot Mon,
there are many instances of homosexuality in animals that are quite natural. The highest occurrence of this is in the Canada Goose population. I believe it is twenty-something percent of the population that that is homosexual; and there is a reason. As you might know, Canada Geese mate for life, so if one partner dies, the other will leave its young and stay with the dead mate. The homosexual couple will then come in and care for the young and/or the "widowed" mate. This is only one example of how homosexuality is helpful to the animal community, not "detrimental."
This makes me ask if the "homosexuality" of geese is the same kind of homosexuality as that of humans. Are you perhaps dabbling in anthropomorphism here? Because if Sexual Antagonism: A genetic theory of homosexuality (Slate) has any credibility then geese would need to be born out of a womb rather than hatched out of an egg.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Nausicaa13, posted 06-24-2008 8:17 PM Nausicaa13 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Wounded King, posted 07-15-2008 6:00 PM Fosdick has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 83 of 108 (475410)
07-15-2008 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Fosdick
07-15-2008 11:15 AM


Re: Of eggs and wombs
Hi Hoot,
Do you ever actually read the research you are purporting to discuss? Are you actually talking about the research paper, 'Sexually Antagonistic Selection in Human Male Homosexuality', or about the one throw away sentence in the slate article which is specifically making the point that the idea that womb environment changes with successive male children could lead to homosexuality is not accounted for by the Antagonistic theory. I don't see any reason why homosexuality couldn't persist in geese consistent with the antagonistic theory.
You seem to be arguing, from what you have presented, that not only does the basis of homosexuality differ between humans and geese but also between different instances of homosexuality in humans. So maybe it is like many of us have always said, sexuality is a highly diverse state and is affected by both genetic and environmental factors producing a spectrum of sexualities.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Fosdick, posted 07-15-2008 11:15 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Fosdick, posted 07-15-2008 7:05 PM Wounded King has not replied
 Message 85 by Fosdick, posted 07-15-2008 7:58 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 84 of 108 (475418)
07-15-2008 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Wounded King
07-15-2008 6:00 PM


Re: Of eggs and wombs
WK writes:
So maybe it is like many of us have always said, sexuality is a highly diverse state and is affected by both genetic and environmental factors producing a spectrum of sexualities.
Well, that pins it right down.
”HM

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 Message 83 by Wounded King, posted 07-15-2008 6:00 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 85 of 108 (475426)
07-15-2008 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Wounded King
07-15-2008 6:00 PM


Re: Of eggs and wombs
WK writes:
I don't see any reason why homosexuality couldn't persist in geese consistent with the antagonistic theory.
Could you explain why? I may have missed something, but the complexity of the antagonistic theory seems to require both womb gestation and a familial history of mother-son births. Please tell me if I'm wrong.
I'll go back and read the article again.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Wounded King, posted 07-15-2008 6:00 PM Wounded King has replied

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Deftil
Member (Idle past 4455 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 86 of 108 (475443)
07-15-2008 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Fosdick
07-15-2008 10:53 AM


Re: More recent info on the topic
Now I am more convinced than ever that homosexuality is an aberration caused by developmental difficulties that might be treatable and even reversible with proper chemotherapy. I think these findings offer the first glimmers of real hope for homosexuals who seek normality and the social benefits thereof.
Given what I know, characterizing it as an aberration caused by developmental difficulties, is quite subjective, and quite possibly even factually incorrect. It's been a few weeks since I've looked at them, but do any of the articles I cited say anything that supports the idea that male homosexuality is an "aberration caused by developmental difficulties"? If the existence of homosexuality has actually been beneficial to humanity, as the theory claims, then would it be accurate to describe it as an "abberation"?
Would chemotherapy even change male homosexuality if it has a large genetic component?
Do you subscribe to eugenics?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Fosdick, posted 07-15-2008 10:53 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Fosdick, posted 07-16-2008 7:38 PM Deftil has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 87 of 108 (475465)
07-16-2008 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Fosdick
07-15-2008 7:58 PM


Re: Of eggs and wombs
Well, that pins it right down.
What did you expect? Biology is a messy science. Reality didn't feel obligated to conform to your desires, how unusual.
but the complexity of the antagonistic theory seems to require both womb gestation and a familial history of mother-son births.
No it doesn't, not only do you not seem to be bothering to read the primary research but you can't even understand the predigested pop-science version either. What the article does is discuss the antagonistic theory, that a genetic factor which increases fecundity in women predisposes men to homosexuality, and draw a distinction between that and another theory, that successive male births leads to increased chances of homosexuality due to changes in the womb environment such as an immunogenic response to male specific antigens. This 'Fraternal Birth Order' (FBO) effect has been estimated to only account for ~1 in 7 instances of male homosexuality (Blanchard & Bogaert, 2004).
Please tell me if I'm wrong.
I thought that was what my previous post just did, but I'll do it again if you insist. You are wrong!
I'll go back and read the article again.
Very good idea, I recommend reading the actual research article as well (see link in Message 83).
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Fosdick, posted 07-15-2008 7:58 PM Fosdick has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 88 of 108 (475466)
07-16-2008 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Fosdick
07-15-2008 10:53 AM


Re: More recent info on the topic
Now I am more convinced than ever that homosexuality is an aberration caused by developmental difficulties that might be treatable and even reversible with proper chemotherapy.think these findings offer the first glimmers of real hope for homosexuals who seek normality and the social benefits thereof.
These 2 things clearly don't go together. Any chemical therapy to prevent the 'abnormal' development of the brain will need to be applied prenatally, or at least very early in life, when the brain is actually developing. This obviously isn't something a homosexual can choose, it will be the choice of the parents.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Fosdick, posted 07-15-2008 10:53 AM Fosdick has not replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 89 of 108 (475469)
07-16-2008 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Fosdick
06-18-2008 8:08 PM


Re: Bald assertions
Hootmon writes:
Nah! I'm sticking with it. If a man's penis is not heterosexually oriented toward a woman vagina (not I'm getting hot, even at my age) he will not get where he needs to go to make a baby. I don't believe homosexuals care to be oriented in the said same way. Orientation has everything to do with it.
I have a friend...he's gay...he's been gay for as long as he can remember (which is to say, as soon as he started having "those feelings", they have always been in response to, and/or directed towards, other males). Oddly, he was once married to a female and they had a daughter (a very attractive young lady, I might add).
Your pathetic premise has been falsified.
Edited by FliesOnly, : oops...forgot the relevant quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Fosdick, posted 06-18-2008 8:08 PM Fosdick has replied

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 90 of 108 (475495)
07-16-2008 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Wounded King
07-16-2008 5:35 AM


Re: Of eggs and wombs
WK writes:
not only do you not seem to be bothering to read the primary research but you can't even understand the predigested pop-science version either. What the article does is discuss the antagonistic theory, that a genetic factor which increases fecundity in women predisposes men to homosexuality, and draw a distinction between that and another theory, that successive male births leads to increased chances of homosexuality due to changes in the womb environment such as an immunogenic response to male specific antigens. This 'Fraternal Birth Order' (FBO) effect has been estimated to only account for ~1 in 7 instances of male homosexuality (Blanchard & Bogaert, 2004).
Wounded, you are right about my confusion. I have wrongly conflated conclusions from several different articles:
1. From The Slate article that discusses Sexual Antagonism: A genetic theory of homosexuality (Slate)
quote:
Gay couples can't have biological kids together. So if homosexuality is genetic, why hasn't it died out?
A study published last week in PLoS One tackles the question. It starts with four curious patterns. First, male homosexuality occurs at a low but stable frequency in a wide range of societies. Second, the female relatives of gay men produce children at a higher rate than other women do. Third, among these female relatives, those related to the gay man's mother produce children at a higher rate than do those related to his father. Fourth, among the man's male relatives, homosexuality is more common in those related to his mother than in those related to his father.
2. The original PlusOne article: 'Sexually Antagonistic Selection in Human Male Homosexuality'
quote:
We perform a systematic mathematical analysis of the propagation and equilibrium of the putative genetic factors for male homosexuality in the population, based on the selection equation for one or two diallelic loci and Bayesian statistics for pedigree investigation. We show that only the two-locus genetic model with at least one locus on the X chromosome, and in which gene expression is sexually antagonistic (increasing female fitness but decreasing male fitness), accounts for all known empirical data. Our results help clarify the basic evolutionary dynamics of male homosexuality, establishing this as a clearly ascertained sexually antagonistic human trait.
3. The NAS article:PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects (PNAS)
quote:
Cerebral responses to putative pheromones and objects of sexual attraction were recently found to differ between homo- and heterosexual subjects...We addressed this issue by studying hemispheric asymmetry and functional connectivity, two parameters that in previous publications have shown specific sex differences. Ninety subjects [25 heterosexual men (HeM) and women (HeW), and 20 homosexual men (HoM) and women (HoW)] were investigated with magnetic resonance volumetry of cerebral and cerebellar hemispheres. Fifty of them also participated in PET measurements of cerebral blood flow, used for analyses of functional connections from the right and left amygdalae. HeM and HoW showed a rightward cerebral asymmetry, whereas volumes of the cerebral hemispheres were symmetrical in HoM and HeW. No cerebellar asymmetries were found. Homosexual subjects also showed sex-atypical amygdala connections...Furthermore, in HoM and HeW the connections were primarily displayed with the contralateral amygdala and the anterior cingulate, in HeM and HoW with the caudate, putamen, and the prefrontal cortex. The present study shows sex-atypical cerebral asymmetry and functional connections in homosexual subjects. The results cannot be primarily ascribed to learned effects, and they suggest a linkage to neurobiological entities.
4. The NIH article by Blanchard & Bogaert:
quote:
Homosexuality in men correlates with an individual's number of older brothers, greater numbers of older brothers being associated with a greater probability of homosexuality. There are reasons to believe that this relationship is causal rather than merely statistical, that is, that older brothers produce the increase in the probability of homosexuality for later-born males. It is possible, under this assumption, to estimate the proportion of homosexual men who can attribute their sexual orientation to their birth order among their brothers (fraternal birth order). This statistic, the population attributable fraction (PAF), was computed on the combined archival data of 2,256 heterosexual and 71 homosexual men examined in survey studies of sexual behavior in the UK and the USA. The PAF was 28.6%, with 95% confidence limits of 14.8% and 48.0%. These limits encompass the PAF of 15.1% previously estimated with a Canadian sample. The results indicate that the proportion of homosexual men whose sexual orientation is attributable to fraternal birth order constitutes a minority, but not a negligible minority, of all homosexual men. The fraternal birth order effect may reflect the progressive immunization of some mothers to Y-linked antigens by each succeeding male fetus, and the concomitantly increasing effects of antimale antibodies on the sexual differentiation of the brain in each succeeding male fetus.
I will continue to try to sort it all out. And with your kind patience I'm sure I'll get it right sooner or later. (Did you know I suffer from paleocerebralism?)
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Wounded King, posted 07-16-2008 5:35 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
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