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Author Topic:   Universe Race
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2293
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 376 of 410 (459803)
03-09-2008 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by ICANT
03-09-2008 10:10 PM


Re: Pink Unicorn
If GR breaks down and can't say anything about T=O It can't tell you if a singularity, nothing or The Pink Unicorn is at T=O.
You've been told multiple times: THE SINGULARITY IS NOT A PHYSICAL OBJECT. GR breaks down because the math produces a singularity at T=0, the singularity is a mathematical concept.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by ICANT, posted 03-09-2008 10:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Chiroptera, posted 03-09-2008 10:29 PM DrJones* has replied
 Message 378 by ICANT, posted 03-09-2008 10:37 PM DrJones* has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 377 of 410 (459804)
03-09-2008 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by DrJones*
03-09-2008 10:22 PM


Re: Pink Unicorn
Remember that scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the father is trying to get the guards to guard his son? That's what this conversation is reminding of.

...Onward to Victory is the last great illusion the Republican Party has left to sell in this country, even to its own followers. They can't sell fiscal responsibility, they can't sell "values," they can't sell competence, they can't sell small government, they can't even sell the economy. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by DrJones*, posted 03-09-2008 10:22 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by DrJones*, posted 03-09-2008 10:44 PM Chiroptera has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 378 of 410 (459805)
03-09-2008 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by DrJones*
03-09-2008 10:22 PM


Re: Pink Unicorn
DrJones,
You've been told multiple times: THE SINGULARITY IS NOT A PHYSICAL OBJECT. GR breaks down because the math produces a singularity at T=0, the singularity is a mathematical concept.
The math breaks down and can't say anything.
Only your assumption produces a singularity.
Present evidence not assertions.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by DrJones*, posted 03-09-2008 10:22 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by DrJones*, posted 03-09-2008 10:43 PM ICANT has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2293
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 379 of 410 (459807)
03-09-2008 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by ICANT
03-09-2008 10:37 PM


Re: Pink Unicorn
The math breaks down and can't say anything.
Only your assumption produces a singularity.
No. The math produces the singularity. The singularity is the outcome of the math at T=0 and this is why we can say that the math breaks down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by ICANT, posted 03-09-2008 10:37 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by ICANT, posted 03-09-2008 11:11 PM DrJones* has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2293
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 380 of 410 (459808)
03-09-2008 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Chiroptera
03-09-2008 10:29 PM


Re: Pink Unicorn
I'm surprised that those of you who've been in this thread long term don't have severe brain trauma caused by repeatedly bashing your heads against the brick wall.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Chiroptera, posted 03-09-2008 10:29 PM Chiroptera has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 381 of 410 (459809)
03-09-2008 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by DrJones*
03-09-2008 10:43 PM


Re: Pink Unicorn
DrJones,
DrJones writes:
No. The math produces the singularity. The singularity is the outcome of the math at T=0 and this is why we can say that the math breaks down.
Would you care to refute:
The page you were looking for doesn't exist (404)
. Cosmology can not predict anything about the universe unless it makes some assumption about the initial conditions. Without such an assumption,
The situation was made worse by the theorems that Roger and I proved. These showed that according to general relativity there should be a singularity in our past.
Penrose and Hawking proved there SHOULD be a singularity in our PAST.
Notice: They did not prove there was a singularity in our past.
Thus classical general relativity brings about its own downfall: it predicts that it can't predict the universe.
Hawking said Gr can't predict the universe.
Or do you just intend to blow smoke?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by DrJones*, posted 03-09-2008 10:43 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by Rahvin, posted 03-09-2008 11:27 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 384 by DrJones*, posted 03-09-2008 11:34 PM ICANT has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 382 of 410 (459810)
03-09-2008 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by ICANT
03-09-2008 11:11 PM


Re: Pink Unicorn
Penrose and Hawking proved there SHOULD be a singularity in our PAST.
Notice: They did not prove there was a singularity in our past.
Jesus christ...you haven't learned a damned thing in this entire thread. A singularity is not a physical object, and neither is it a state of the universe, it's what we call the breakdown of the math. Weve told you this a dozen times in this very thread.
Ive come to the conclusion that it isnt worth talking to you regarding any science topics - you arent capable of learning even the most basic definitions, and insist that every hole in your understanding (a list of which would fill libraries) is a major gap in the actual theory.
Your face belongs right next to tesla's in the Fractally Wrong entry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by ICANT, posted 03-09-2008 11:11 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by ICANT, posted 03-09-2008 11:36 PM Rahvin has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4799 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 383 of 410 (459811)
03-09-2008 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by tesla
03-09-2008 8:47 PM


Re: I conclude with thanks
You don’t get it because you’re trying so very hard not to get it.
Your objections are strange. Just really, really strange.
“I could understand how increased mass could condense.” Is a meaningless sentence.
“It would react with it’s energy conditions into matter of a denser form.” is not only meaningless, but requires you to invent a physics (not to mention an English) for a learning aid.
You keep saying the maths this and the maths that , but exhibit no apparent understanding of even the simplest concepts. You keep saying new variables are being ignored without mentioning a single new idea to consider.
Another analogy: We attempt to understand the workings of an automobile. Some are discussing shock resonance inside the combustion chambers. Others examine drive line forces. I sit around giggling because it’s Yugo and someone has turbo charged it. You have a broken Pez dispenser from the glove compartment, a small tear in the vinyl upholstery, and a service spare. With your sundry evidences you claim everyone else is talking bollix, because the properties of the service spare when considered with the new variable of the nonfunctional Pez thrust mechanism, would require a general discontinuity of point conditional theories.
A meaningless statement does not gain from the quantity of detail.
To me its possible...
Stuff in the Universe is not a result of its being possible to us.
I do not have all the answers. But who does?
No one has claimed for themselves to have all the answers, and surely no one has accused you of it. But:
Those claiming i am an utter fool have accepted tentative theory with no doubts of any part of it being wrong?
Could you name a single person who has hinted at a denial of any theory of science not being tentative? Cogito ergo sum; all else is tentative, but we all understand this so it’s a bit of a rhythm breaker to have to say so after every assertion. Especially when those assertions are backed up with more evidence than any of use would ever be able to examine individually.
It is not we who are failing to grasp the thread.

Kindly
******
Fishing for complements without bait.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by tesla, posted 03-09-2008 8:47 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by tesla, posted 03-10-2008 8:31 PM lyx2no has not replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2293
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 384 of 410 (459812)
03-09-2008 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by ICANT
03-09-2008 11:11 PM


Re: Pink Unicorn
Rahvin answered you much more politely than I would.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by ICANT, posted 03-09-2008 11:11 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 385 of 410 (459814)
03-09-2008 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by Rahvin
03-09-2008 11:27 PM


Re: Evidence
Hi Rahvin,
I am not claiming the singularity is anything.
I am saying it don't exist.
I am presenting Hawking and Penrose testimony as evidence.
Unless you assume a singularity,
Unless you assume a pea sized universe,
There is nothing to expand.
Either refute the evidence or pass the baton.
Your continual assertions just will not convince me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Rahvin, posted 03-09-2008 11:27 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by Rob, posted 03-10-2008 12:35 AM ICANT has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5931 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 386 of 410 (459819)
03-10-2008 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by ICANT
03-09-2008 11:36 PM


Re: Evidence
Frustrating isn't it?
Regarding singularities and the like, it's totally analogous to what I told Straggler here: http://EvC Forum: What is science? (ROB and STRAGGLER only) -->EvC Forum: What is science? (ROB and STRAGGLER only)
Rob:
There is no directly observable evidence of the big bang.
It is therefore strictly not empirical. But it is held as 'scientific' because it assumes a material origin. That cannot be proven...ever - minus omnipotence.
So back to my question...
If they don't have empirical evidence, then how can they conclude that only material evidence is valid?
Because methodological naturalism is not empirical, it is philsophical, i.e. religious belief.
Their god is a nature God. Mine is the God of nature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by ICANT, posted 03-09-2008 11:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by Taz, posted 03-10-2008 1:25 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 390 by ICANT, posted 03-10-2008 10:23 AM Rob has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 387 of 410 (459824)
03-10-2008 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by Rob
03-10-2008 12:35 AM


Re: Evidence
Rob writes:
There is no directly observable evidence of the big bang.
You and ICANT are playing this game of...
You guys: What about A?
Us: Well, A is this...
You guys: What about B?
Us: Well, B is this...
You guys: What about C?
Us: Well, C is this...
You guys: What about A?
Us: We've already answered this, but here it is again...
You guys: What about B?
Us: We've already answered this, but here it is again...
You guys: What about C?
Us: We've already answered this, but here it is again...
You guys: What about A?
Us: We've already answered this, but here it is again...
You guys: What about B?
Us: We've already answered this, but here it is again...
You guys: What about C?
You guys: What about A?
Us: Screw you, we've already answered this many times before...
You guys: Since you guys can't answer A, therefore, God is the only answer.
Back to the BB, there are direct observable evidence for it. We've already told you a kazillion times what these are. If you don't know the direct evidence that we have of the BB by now, you will never get it.

Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by Rob, posted 03-10-2008 12:35 AM Rob has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by ICANT, posted 03-10-2008 10:01 AM Taz has replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5603 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 388 of 410 (459841)
03-10-2008 8:23 AM


For those that would like to understand better the difference between an expanding universe and simple relative motion between the galaxies, there is a good explanation here. Note that you can always pass from one point of view to the other through a change of coordinates, but that change of coordinates is valid only locally and that's why the former point of view is to be prefered when talking about the whole universe.

ICANT
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 389 of 410 (459850)
03-10-2008 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by Taz
03-10-2008 1:25 AM


Re: Evidence
Hi Taz,
Taz writes:
We've already told you a kazillion times what these are.
Taz I tell you there is a God. You say prove it. I say you have to believe it by faith. You say yea more fairy tales.
Now you and many others on here have told me several times the singularity is a not a physical thing. OK
I have been told several times there is a universe about the size of a pea that expanded into the universe as we know it. I say oh yea where did it come from.
I have been told we don't know. We just know that it is. I say well prove it.
Then I am told we have done that a kazillion times. I say to that would you please reference one of those times.
Better yet how about refuting the evidence I presented in Message 375
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Taz, posted 03-10-2008 1:25 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Taz, posted 03-10-2008 1:18 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 390 of 410 (459852)
03-10-2008 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by Rob
03-10-2008 12:35 AM


Re: Evidence
Hi Rob,
Frustrating isn't it?
Sometimes but I would say, I feel more pathetic than frustrated.
Tunnel vision is a terrible disease.
The worst part is I believe the universe came into existence Instantaneously.
I believe the universe expanded because God stretched out the heavens.
I know I believe this by faith.
Everybody that keeps trying to correct my belief keeps telling me they have evidence for the creation and the expansion.
When in reality all they have is faith it took place as they think it did.
God Bless and keep up the good work,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by Rob, posted 03-10-2008 12:35 AM Rob has not replied

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