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Author Topic:   Universe Race
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 23 of 410 (456964)
02-21-2008 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Crooked to what standard
02-20-2008 9:02 PM


Responding to this message is against my better judgment.
Ichthus writes:
It seems that there would be a center of the universe. It seems that the center of the universe would be the exact spot the Big Bang happened.
For a moment, just shut up and try to read what I have to say and then try to think it through before you respond.
Imagine a balloon. The surface area of the 2 dimensional surface of the balloon represents space. As the balloon inflates, the surface area of the balloon increases. Now, if you are only confined to the 2 dimensional surface of the balloon, where is the center? There is no center. But if you are to stand on any point of the balloon, it would seem that every other point on the balloon is moving away from you.
At this point, I know you are tempted to say that the center of the balloon is actually the 3rd dimensional space inside the balloon. But remember that you are not allowed to leave the 2 dimensional surface of the balloon.
If you were go back in time, you would see the surface area of the balloon decrease until right before it reaches infinitesimally small.
Now, try to apply that to 3 dimensional space. There is no center of the 3 dimensional universe just like there is no center on the 2 dimensional surface of the balloon. We are 3 dimensional creatures, so we are confined to referring everything to the 3 dimensional space that we know. But for just a moment, try to think of it from this perspective. There is no center of the 3 dimensional universe that we can observe just like there is no center of the 2 dimensional surface of the balloon.
I highly recommend you go to your local library and pick up the book Flatland by Edwin A. Abbott. Try to read it with an open mind. It will greatly explain to you why it is so difficult for 3 dimensional beings like ourselves to think outside the box.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Crooked to what standard, posted 02-20-2008 9:02 PM Crooked to what standard has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 24 of 410 (456965)
02-21-2008 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by CTD
02-20-2008 11:56 PM


CTD writes:
But don't get sidetracked by dark matter. It's primary function is to hold galaxies together. There ain't enough visible mass and the velocities are just crazy - well not crazy, God knew what He was doing. Without dark matter, galaxies fly apart in a few thousand years. So there has to be dark matter, because the galaxies haven't flown apart in billions of imaginary years.
Uhhh, I don't know what planet you're living on, but this isn't the reason why Fritz Zwicky proposed the existence of dark matter.
I won't tax you with what I know of the dark energy fantasy at this time. Like the rest, it's funny but at the same time very sad business. They've been into blind faith for quite some time now.
Right, and believing in a god that watches you when you masturbate isn't blind faith?
But anyhow, to stop your analogy from being on target, they'd have to devise something that counteracts inertia and is capable of preventing the universe from flying apart. The mainstream bin's empty, so expect trash that's either 50 years out-of-date, or straight out of a sci-fi novel. Or invented ad hoc, can't forget that category.
Apparently, you haven't gone past the 80's yet. Because in the 90's, they've observed that the universe really is literally flying apart, at an accelerated speed mind you.
Ah, if only there were drag in empty space... you might get to refine your analogy. But once something reaches escape velocity in a vacuum, there's no turning back without some means of thrust. If there had been a big bang, everything would have to have been exceeding this velocity from the very start. This applies no matter how many loopy extra imaginary dimensions are added.
I'm sorry, I didn't know you were such a prominent physicist. Mind giving us the math behind this fantasy of yours?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by CTD, posted 02-20-2008 11:56 PM CTD has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 32 of 410 (457007)
02-21-2008 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by ICANT
02-21-2008 9:52 AM


Re: Re-Start of Race
ICANT writes:
But how do you get the volume of mass and energy that is in the universe in something so small?
I think I know why you are confused. Most lay people think matter is solid in the conventional sense. When you are talking about very dense matter like neutron stars and singularities, it helps to stop thinking of them in the conventional sense. The table that holds up your computer isn't really solid. In fact, without even mentioning the subatomic world, most of an atom is just empty space. When I say most, I mean like 99% of it is empty space. Things are not as solid as they seem.
Personally, I'd like to have a little piece of neutron in my collection before I die of old age.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2008 9:52 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2008 11:01 AM Taz has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 36 of 410 (457016)
02-21-2008 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by ICANT
02-21-2008 10:58 AM


Re: Re-density
ICANT writes:
CS writes:
By approaching infinite density.
Don't black holes have infinite density?
Ask yourself this question. What do you get when you minus infinity by 1? How about by 10? How about by 10000? How about by 10000000000? How about by 100000000000000000000?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2008 10:58 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2008 11:11 AM Taz has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 38 of 410 (457020)
02-21-2008 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ICANT
02-21-2008 11:11 AM


Re: Re-density
Uh, you responded to the wrong post.
I'm trying to get you to understand the concept of infinity and approaching infinity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2008 11:11 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2008 11:48 AM Taz has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 48 of 410 (457042)
02-21-2008 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ICANT
02-21-2008 12:02 PM


Re: Re-Expansion
ICANT writes:
The balloon don't fly because everything would be getting farther apart and it is not. Galxayes have colided and are going to colide.
Ok, let's give this another try.
Suppose we have a balloon that is already inflated. On the surface of the balloon there are hundreds of ants crawling around. The surface area of the balloon increases as the balloon itself continues to inflates. The general distances between the ants increase over time as the balloon continues to inflates. However, some ants will inevitably bump into each other.
Added by edit.
Small ants represent stars. Big ants represent galaxies. And if you want to get more specific, the parasites that reside on the ants represent planets and asteroids, and other planetary bodies.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2008 12:02 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2008 12:56 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 55 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2008 1:09 PM Taz has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 59 of 410 (457088)
02-21-2008 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by cavediver
02-21-2008 1:09 PM


Re: Re-Expansion
caverdiver writes:
Nice one, Taz. I always forget to the add the ants. Mind you, they will be VERY slow ants, or that balloon is bloody big...
We always have to remember that the surface of the balloon represents space itself, not space and matter. Although I did get a laugh out of imagining a bunch of ants crawling around on the surface of a balloon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2008 1:09 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2008 2:00 PM Taz has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 60 of 410 (457091)
02-21-2008 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by cavediver
02-21-2008 1:25 PM


Re: Re-Planck volume
caverdiver writes:
If there is sufficient density in the Universe (and ignoring the cosmological constant) then the Universe will collapse back to something the size of a pea and beyond.
As a thought experiment with my buddies back in the old days, we decided that the only conceivable way we could save the universe from flying apart and become a cold almost empty place is through time travel. We could start sending back in time stars... whole galaxies and whole clusters. Not too much, though. Just enough to create a balance between gravity and the universal expansion and eventually create a static universe. In such a universe, we would have untold trillions of years to come up with a way to deal with the eventual heat death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2008 1:25 PM cavediver has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 63 of 410 (457106)
02-21-2008 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by cavediver
02-21-2008 2:00 PM


Re: Re-Expansion
cavediver writes:
A model of reality incorporating GR and QFT has the ants as mere excitations/ripples in the balloon skin - though the skin is now multi-layer
Yeah, and good luck trying to get the public to swallow that model

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2008 2:00 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2008 2:23 PM Taz has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 70 of 410 (457170)
02-21-2008 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by ICANT
02-21-2008 3:35 PM


Re: Pull
ICANT writes:
My question was: "I was asking how much gravitational pull it took in the beginning to hold everything in that small space."
Noone knows. Experts are not all knowing. There are limits to our knowledge.
The more important point is I can already see you inserting god in this gap already. Go ahead. Noone will stop you.
Added by edit.
Is there really a point to asking questions you know noone could answer other than to look for a place to insert your god of the gaps?
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2008 3:35 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2008 4:58 PM Taz has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 72 of 410 (457173)
02-21-2008 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Rahvin
02-21-2008 4:34 PM


Re: Pull
Rahvin writes:
You do know that things do eventually escape from black holes, don't you? It's called Hawking Radiation
Just a nitpick. Things don't "escape" from a black hole in the sense that we tend to think of when we think of "escape".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 4:34 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 4:46 PM Taz has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 89 of 410 (457235)
02-21-2008 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ICANT
02-21-2008 8:19 PM


Re: Re-Planck volume
God said "Let there be protons!" and there was protons and there was much rejoice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2008 8:19 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Admin, posted 02-21-2008 8:37 PM Taz has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 161 of 410 (457626)
02-24-2008 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by johnfolton
02-24-2008 12:42 PM


Re: Flat Universe !!!!!!!
johnfolton writes:
Ha Ha !!!!!! Get your bible out Dude, The Word says the earth is round. Are you one of those darwianin flat earther dudes?
Ok, "dude", the bible not only says the Earth is round, it specifically says the Earth is a circle in isaiah 40:22.
Before you start saying "circle and sphere is the same thing" like I've heard so many christians try to rationalize this, give me an example of a 3 dimensional circle and I'll give you 50 cents.
Added by edit.
I, too, got a really good laugh out of the fact that that joke flew right over your head.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by johnfolton, posted 02-24-2008 12:42 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by johnfolton, posted 02-24-2008 6:47 PM Taz has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 293 of 410 (459460)
03-07-2008 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by fallacycop
03-07-2008 1:37 PM


Re: Re-Inflation
{clicked wrong button}
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by fallacycop, posted 03-07-2008 1:37 PM fallacycop has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 368 of 410 (459773)
03-09-2008 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by tesla
03-09-2008 7:18 PM


Re: I conclude with thanks
tesla writes:
I am attempting to establish what can be said by definite observations on a very heavily tentative science.
Let me guess, the judeo-christian god is the one true god?
Don't get me wrong. We embrace people's ability to think for themselves. What annoy us are people who repeatedly make up crackpot "theories" to explain the world. Anyone with a decent background in science can disprove these theories right off the bat, but the problem is that the audience also need to have some kind of background in science in order to understand the refutation. And I'm sorry to say this but most people I've talked to haven't got a clue what's head and what's tail in these matters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by tesla, posted 03-09-2008 7:18 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by tesla, posted 03-09-2008 7:44 PM Taz has replied

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