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Author Topic:   Purple dosn't beleve in relativity
rfnorgan
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 114 (166930)
12-10-2004 10:07 AM


A crucial test of relativity
I have only just discovered this site so i hope that I am not repeating what has been said before.
If any experiment designed to observe the effects of relative velocity on matter systems, eg clocks for their simplicity of observation,shows that one clock of two identical clocks does not keep identical time with the other over a period of time, (the start and end readings to be made at the same point in the IRF of the observer so as to remove observation effects )then the STR is invalid.For one clock must be fast with respect to the other and the STR cannot predict 'time contraction'.
Several experiments show this time difference.
If it is considered that any experiment of this type is invalid due to one or both clocks not residing in an IRF throughout the experiment, then any velocity effect prediction made by the STR of an observation made fom Earth must also be invalid as the Earth does not inhabit an IRF. Consequently a velocity effects theory which will allow predictions from Earth is still required.
My tip for other posters to this site is that they should distinguish between observations which include observational effects ie arising from the circumstance of the observer,and real effects that do not.

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 77 of 114 (167016)
12-10-2004 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Sylas
12-10-2004 12:59 AM


Re: Which ends up older?
Thanks for yours and everyone else's explanation. This has got me to thinking about a new topic...

This message is a reply to:
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The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 114 (167045)
12-10-2004 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by RAZD
12-10-2004 7:56 AM


Re: What about 0 gravity at the bottom of the well?
there is zero net gravitational attraction in any one direction, but there is still massive gravity affecting the universe fabric.
Yeah, see that was why I called it the "bottom of the well". So Space time IS streached is that right?
By the way the center of mass between two stars (or any objects) orbiting eachother is called the Barycenter.
This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-10-2004 06:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by RAZD, posted 12-10-2004 7:56 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by RAZD, posted 12-10-2004 8:39 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 114 (167046)
12-10-2004 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Sylas
12-10-2004 7:09 AM


OH! of course think about it!
Of course it doesn't matter how many G's you experince!
Think about something falling. It is still affected by a gravitational feild and time STILL slows down right?
Anything that is falling experences 0g's (just like objects in a barycenter or center of mass) but is stil subject to time dialation!
Even something falling into a black hole would experence 0 g's (though the horrible streaching might count as g forces) but we know time still slows down!
This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-10-2004 06:29 PM

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 80 of 114 (167064)
12-10-2004 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by The Dread Dormammu
12-10-2004 6:23 PM


Re: What about 0 gravity at the bottom of the well?
stretched between, compressed at mass locii ... like topology of a foam mattress with bowling balls on it, and the closer to the "massive" objects the more drawn to them you are by the curvature
a rolling marble.
I thought Barycenter was where chuck was on stage ....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-10-2004 6:23 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-12-2004 5:16 PM RAZD has replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 114 (167441)
12-12-2004 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by RAZD
12-10-2004 8:39 PM


Re: What about 0 gravity at the bottom of the well?
like topology of a foam mattress with bowling balls on it, and the closer to the "massive" objects the more drawn to them you are by the curvature
Right but even if somthing is in the barycenter space is still streached out. Or to use your metaphore, the matress is still lower.
This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-12-2004 05:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by RAZD, posted 12-10-2004 8:39 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2004 7:00 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied
 Message 85 by teratogenome, posted 12-13-2004 4:32 AM The Dread Dormammu has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 82 of 114 (167486)
12-12-2004 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by The Dread Dormammu
12-12-2004 5:16 PM


Re: What about 0 gravity at the bottom of the well?
funny, I think of it as being more compressed, like the foam under the ball. I guess it is from visualizing the gravity lines like a topological map and seeing them closer together at the denser objects and so the are compressed in one view. of course if you look from the "side" they would be seperated out.
it's a matter of perspective.

(Klein Bottle Hats and Scarves)
(Acme Klein Bottle)
(I got a hat for my dad last christmas)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-12-2004 5:16 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied

Replies to this message:
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The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 114 (167496)
12-12-2004 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by RAZD
12-12-2004 7:00 PM


The original metaphhore
Well the original metaphore was of a rubbber sheet witch would become thinner and more streached out... Like butter scraped over too much bread, I'm old Gandalf.
Woah, sorry.
So are we done? Reletivity is hard to understand, granted, but it makes predictions that we have EXTENSIVELY tested and found to be accurate.
Just becase it's confusing and weird doesn't make it wrong.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 84 of 114 (167526)
12-12-2004 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by The Dread Dormammu
12-12-2004 7:16 PM


Re: The original metaphhore
true.
but. there is still a problem with gravity not matching observation to theory without throwing in some epicycles of dark matter and epicycle on epicycle of dark energy ...
something is not ... quite ... right yet.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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teratogenome
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 114 (167607)
12-13-2004 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by The Dread Dormammu
12-12-2004 5:16 PM


Re: What about 0 gravity at the bottom of the well?
Just a few questions, let's say that all of the earth's mass was collected into 5 miles of crust so that on the surface, no change in vector or strength of gravity could be felt. If you dug down 5 miles and broke though, wouldn't you fall?
But if you threw a ring onto a foam mattress and dropped a marble in the center, wouldn't it run towards the depression close to the ring?
Also I have read that if you travel at relativistic speeds (I forget if it is while you are undergoing acceleration or not, maybe someone can help me out), that you would be unable to see stars if you looked in any direction perpendicular to the direction you are traveling. You could however see stars in the front and back, and in fact, would be seeing stars there (for example at 30 degrees off center) instead of to your side. Does this have to do with the "vector of impact" that photons arriving from your side appear to have?
Also, if time dilation can be measured after synchronized watches are returned to the same inertial frame, why can't length contraction be measured... or can it? Or is time dilation "real" and length contraction only a distortion?
Also, am I even asking the right questions or am I way off the mark?
This message has been edited by teratogenome, 12-13-2004 04:34 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-12-2004 5:16 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied

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 Message 86 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-13-2004 6:20 AM teratogenome has not replied
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 Message 91 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2004 12:34 AM teratogenome has not replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 114 (167625)
12-13-2004 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by teratogenome
12-13-2004 4:32 AM


Streaching the metaphore
But if you threw a ring onto a foam mattress and dropped a marble in the center, wouldn't it run towards the depression close to the ring?
Yeah the analogy breaks down. It's only an analogy, it's not meant to be taken purely literaly. It's not even in 3 dimentions.
you would be unable to see stars if you looked in any direction perpendicular to the direction you are traveling.
Yes. I believe as you approach the speed of light the stars seem to "collect" in front of you as you go faster and faster (it doesn't matter about the accelaration only the relative speed).
Soon it gets to the point where you can only see one bright spot in front of you, and darkness behind. I'm sure there is a website where you can see a diagram of this.
Also, if time dilation can be measured after synchronized watches are returned to the same inertial frame, why can't length contraction be measured... or can it? Or is time dilation "real" and length contraction only a distortion?
Both can be measured. They are both "real".
By the way Welcome to the forum.

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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 114 (167684)
12-13-2004 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by teratogenome
12-13-2004 4:32 AM


Re: What about 0 gravity at the bottom of the well?
quote:
Just a few questions, let's say that all of the earth's mass was collected into 5 miles of crust so that on the surface, no change in vector or strength of gravity could be felt. If you dug down 5 miles and broke though, wouldn't you fall?
Yes, you would fall toward the point at the centre of the ring/sphere, and then oscillate around it.
But if you threw a ring onto a foam mattress and dropped a marble in the center, wouldn't it run towards the depression close to the ring?[/quote]
I would so yes and no, as Dormammu notes the anlogy can be pushed to far.
Yes the actual ring material is what is exerting gravity, and if you were very close to one side of the ring you would be attracted to that ring material gravitationally. But that attraction will be much smaller than the attraction exerted by the whole ring/sphere as if at its centre of mass. So you will still be attracted more toward the centre than toward the edge.
Where the analogy breaks down is that a ring exerts local pressure on a sheet that accords with the topology of a ring, while gravity always acts on the body as a whole and at a point of fulcrum at the centre of its mass/density distribution. The ring scenario should properly be imagined as making a dent in the rubber sheet that keeps sloping inward toward the centre of the ring, while having a lesser dent forming a shelf at the ring itself. At least, this is how I understand things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by teratogenome, posted 12-13-2004 4:32 AM teratogenome has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Raymon, posted 12-14-2004 12:15 AM contracycle has replied
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Raymon
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 114 (167923)
12-14-2004 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by contracycle
12-13-2004 10:43 AM


Re: What about 0 gravity at the bottom of the well?
I'm pretty sure you have it wrong on one point. Once you are inside a sphere of uniform density, you don't feel any gravitational force.
This fact has a neat little corralary- If you had a hole that went from one place on the surface of the earth and followed a straight line to another hole on the surface of the earth, and you dropped a ball down the hole, it would have a period of occilation of 84 minutes- even if the hole was through the center of the earth.(I'm a physisist, so I'm considering a spherical earth of uniform density)
Which means that gravitaionally speaking, every place on earth is 42 minutes away from every other place on earth. Who says Douglas Adams just wrote fiction!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by contracycle, posted 12-13-2004 10:43 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 12-14-2004 12:22 AM Raymon has replied
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Raymon
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 114 (167924)
12-14-2004 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by contracycle
12-13-2004 10:43 AM


Re: What about 0 gravity at the bottom of the well?
dupe
This message has been edited by Raymon, 12-14-2004 12:16 AM

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 114 (167927)
12-14-2004 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Raymon
12-14-2004 12:15 AM


wandering off topic
but in the way I really enjoy.
Re: 42 minutes. Is this an evactuated hole? Is this a 21 minute = radius drop picture?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Raymon, posted 12-14-2004 12:15 AM Raymon has replied

Replies to this message:
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