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Author Topic:   How can anyone say that this universe was designed for Humanity?
stevo3890
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 60 (42733)
06-12-2003 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
06-12-2003 4:07 PM


the only restraint there seems to be is that there is no restriant. Q M places no limits on the Multiverse as well, as everything in that theory is random.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 4:07 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 4:41 PM stevo3890 has replied

  
stevo3890
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 60 (42735)
06-12-2003 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by NosyNed
06-12-2003 4:26 PM


im no scientist but the book i have read on it (brian Greene's the elegant universe refers to them.

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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4627 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 33 of 60 (42736)
06-12-2003 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by stevo3890
06-12-2003 4:21 PM


Re: String theory
Sorry, shameless generalization... humor intended.
I'm just tired of hearing creationists claiming that every missing link, every unexplained biological fact, is the fatal blow to the theory of evolution. It's nice to hear from someone who understands that scientific knowledge can be useful before we know every last detail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by stevo3890, posted 06-12-2003 4:21 PM stevo3890 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by stevo3890, posted 06-12-2003 4:35 PM zephyr has replied

  
stevo3890
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 60 (42740)
06-12-2003 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by zephyr
06-12-2003 4:29 PM


Re: String theory
I believe in God but i am no idiot. as for the people who are idiots and believe in God there are just morons if they do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by zephyr, posted 06-12-2003 4:29 PM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by zephyr, posted 06-12-2003 4:37 PM stevo3890 has not replied
 Message 45 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 7:50 PM stevo3890 has not replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4627 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 35 of 60 (42741)
06-12-2003 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by stevo3890
06-12-2003 4:35 PM


Re: String theory
quote:
I believe in God but i am no idiot.
I had noticed. Nice to have you here.
quote:
as for the people who are idiots and believe in God there are just morons if they do that.
Lotsa laughs from that one, man!
OK... not to get too off topic... I know basically nothing of string theory so I'm gone.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 36 of 60 (42745)
06-12-2003 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by stevo3890
06-12-2003 4:27 PM


the only restraint there seems to be is that there is no restriant. Q M places no limits on the Multiverse as well, as everything in that theory is random.
My point is, with a sample space of only one universe - ours - we have no idea at all what the restrictions could be. String theory could be in error - or there could be additional laws that prohibit certain types of universes, outside of string theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by stevo3890, posted 06-12-2003 4:27 PM stevo3890 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by stevo3890, posted 06-12-2003 5:04 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 38 by Geno, posted 06-12-2003 6:49 PM crashfrog has replied

  
stevo3890
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 60 (42753)
06-12-2003 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by crashfrog
06-12-2003 4:41 PM


crashfrog,
in your opinion what came first the Universe or the laws which govern them

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 4:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 6:49 PM stevo3890 has not replied
 Message 41 by PaulK, posted 06-12-2003 7:05 PM stevo3890 has not replied

  
Geno
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 60 (42774)
06-12-2003 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by crashfrog
06-12-2003 4:41 PM


String Theory, Inflation, and Bubble Universes
My point is, with a sample space of only one universe - ours - we have no idea at all what the restrictions could be. String theory could be in error - or there could be additional laws that prohibit certain types of universes, outside of string theory.
Why are you placing the restriction of one universe? My understanding is that String theory has nothing to do with multiverses, but only seeks to describe the conditions of this universe.
The Eternal Inflation Model posits a never ending cascade of universes--why pick one?
wr/Geno

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 4:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 6:50 PM Geno has replied
 Message 47 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 7:52 PM Geno has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 60 (42775)
06-12-2003 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by stevo3890
06-12-2003 5:04 PM


in your opinion what came first the Universe or the laws which govern them
Do you mean, the laws that govern the behavior of entities in our universe, or the laws that govern the behavior of universes themselves? Because I think those are two different things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by stevo3890, posted 06-12-2003 5:04 PM stevo3890 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 40 of 60 (42776)
06-12-2003 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Geno
06-12-2003 6:49 PM


Re: String Theory, Inflation, and Bubble Universes
The Eternal Inflation Model posits a never ending cascade of universes--why pick one?
Because all your other universes are simply inferred. This universe is the only one for which we have any data.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Geno, posted 06-12-2003 6:49 PM Geno has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Geno, posted 06-12-2003 7:11 PM crashfrog has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 41 of 60 (42781)
06-12-2003 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by stevo3890
06-12-2003 5:04 PM


I would say that it is a mistake to reify natural laws or to assume that they truly govern anything.
Natural laws are descriptive, not prescriptive. They describe the behaviour of natural entities and can only be said to exist in any sense so long as the entities they describe exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by stevo3890, posted 06-12-2003 5:04 PM stevo3890 has not replied

  
Geno
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 60 (42782)
06-12-2003 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by crashfrog
06-12-2003 6:50 PM


Re: String Theory, Inflation, and Bubble Universes
Because all your other universes are simply inferred. This universe is the only one for which we have any data.
You have an issue with the Inflationary Model (and it's implications) but not String theory, with 10 dimensions--knowing that we only have data on 4 of those dimensions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 6:50 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 7:29 PM Geno has not replied
 Message 48 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 7:56 PM Geno has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 43 of 60 (42785)
06-12-2003 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Geno
06-12-2003 7:11 PM


Re: String Theory, Inflation, and Bubble Universes
but not String theory, with 10 dimensions--knowing that we only have data on 4 of those dimensions?
I'm not sure I believe in that, either. No matter how well 10 dimensions might balance the equations, I'll believe them when there's experimental evidence. That's the final arbiter, to me.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 44 of 60 (42787)
06-12-2003 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
06-12-2003 4:07 PM


initial conditions
I think we are all being streached by this. I'd be pleased if someone who actually understood this stuff dropped in
but ignorance doesn't seem to stop most of us so I'll post as if I know what I was talking about.
One hope from string theory is that it may not need to "set" initial conditions. The nature of physical law and the universe may come out as natural consequences of the math.
My comment that it isn't there yet is because it hasn't reached that point. If it did it may show that there can only be a universe like this one. (may not too ). That might put an end to the anthropic principle arguments.
The reason for picking 10 or 11 dimenstions is that the math works out naturally in some way, it produces consisent results that behave like our universe. Please, please don't ask me to post any other the math. LOL I only had 4 years of honors math/physics -- there is no hope for me to understand this level of the stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 4:07 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by stevo3890, posted 06-12-2003 7:52 PM NosyNed has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 45 of 60 (42789)
06-12-2003 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by stevo3890
06-12-2003 4:35 PM


Re: String theory
There are idiots who believe and idiots who don't. Like good and bad there doesn't seem to be much correlation.
It is unfortunate that the unbelievers here get exposed to an unrepresentative sample of the believers. We get to expect the worst. If you read over some of the posts you'll see why.
I, for one, take the position that it is idiotic to suggest that evolutionary theory isn't, in an overall way, correct. It is way beyond being something that be overthrown completely. This position gives one a bad attitude to start with. It is unfair to take it with any individual when they may have been subject to a lot of lies and been innocently ignorant.
I'm kind of hoping there will be some interesting surprises as we learn more about the genetic makeup of more and more organisms and especially how changes arise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by stevo3890, posted 06-12-2003 4:35 PM stevo3890 has not replied

  
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