Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,818 Year: 3,075/9,624 Month: 920/1,588 Week: 103/223 Day: 1/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   rational people only (no yecs)
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 46 (6347)
03-08-2002 11:37 PM


i was thinking about the universe and i thought of this
if the laws of physics were created at the moment of the big bang, wouldn't that mean that all time was decided from that point forward? if you think about it, the laws of physics have total control over every inanimate object- they move it- they make it- they destroy it.
so that means that time was nothing- that is until living beings were factored in- we can are not controlled by the laws of physics, we are only restricted by them.
so basically, the moment our universe was created, it was built in with the instructions to evolve, and that the moment living beings were created, which could govern themselves, time began. so when living organisms emerged, a new chapter in reality was opened up. we can manipulate the futrue, and we can change time.
and we developed from inanimate matter, and the laws of physics instructed this matter to develop- would it be too far-fetched to assume that our univierse may also be evolving into something else, if you understand me?
or maybe we are built in with instructions to create the next chapter. think- life has always been expanding- the fish from the sea- the apes from the trees- the humans from the earth- hmmm. could this mean something- certainly- we just have to think outside the box.
[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-08-2002]
[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-08-2002]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by quicksink, posted 03-08-2002 11:41 PM quicksink has not replied
 Message 3 by Joe Meert, posted 03-08-2002 11:51 PM quicksink has not replied
 Message 17 by joz, posted 03-09-2002 10:41 AM quicksink has not replied
 Message 28 by Peter, posted 03-11-2002 8:39 AM quicksink has not replied
 Message 30 by jennacreationist, posted 06-22-2002 8:49 PM quicksink has not replied
 Message 35 by Martin J. Koszegi, posted 06-25-2002 4:08 PM quicksink has not replied
 Message 46 by Brad McFall, posted 11-15-2002 11:09 AM quicksink has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 46 (6348)
03-08-2002 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by quicksink
03-08-2002 11:37 PM


so basically- there was no time before the existence of life, or matter that can actually govern their own actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by quicksink, posted 03-08-2002 11:37 PM quicksink has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by doctrbill, posted 03-08-2002 11:55 PM quicksink has replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 3 of 46 (6350)
03-08-2002 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by quicksink
03-08-2002 11:37 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by quicksink:
[B]if the laws of physics were created at the moment of the big bang, wouldn't that mean that all time was decided from that point forward? if you think about it, the laws of physics have total control over every inanimate object- they move it- they make it- they destroy it. [/QUOTE]
JM: Well, not necessarily. The 'laws of physics' may have existed....well I hate to use the word but here goes...before the Big bang. In other words, our Universe may have come about simply because these 'laws' are able to produce a stable universe. Your assertion regarding time is absolutely correct. Time began at the instant of the BB (hence my reluctance to use the word 'before' earlier). As far as how we measure 'time' you are also both correct and incorrect. We (here on earth) define time in terms of our reference frame. The convenient measure is one revolution around the Sun. We could therefore redefine time as we like and Einstein indicated that all time is dependent upon the reference frame of the observer.....
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by quicksink, posted 03-08-2002 11:37 PM quicksink has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Rationalist, posted 08-16-2002 1:56 PM Joe Meert has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 4 of 46 (6351)
03-08-2002 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by quicksink
03-08-2002 11:41 PM


The "laws" of physics are not a set of rules and instructions, they are merely our mathematical descriptions of what is, and how things happen.
Hope this helps.
-----
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by quicksink, posted 03-08-2002 11:41 PM quicksink has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by quicksink, posted 03-09-2002 12:06 AM doctrbill has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 46 (6352)
03-09-2002 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by doctrbill
03-08-2002 11:55 PM


i don't know
look at it this way
if a tree falls in the forest, and no one sees it or hears it, does it make a sound? or better yet- does it even fall until someone sees the fallen tree...
my point is that beyond a conscious being, or before a conscious being, no time existed. the moment something comes into existence that can observe and have a tangible effect on another piece of matter, all time atarted.
before life, everything was predetermined, because each piece of matter, which can be traced back to the big bang, was created, moved, and destroyed by principles that exist in the universe, ie gravity.
no asteroid decided to slam into earth- the laws of physics made it.
cause and effect only exists in a universe where matter can determine its own actions.
i do not believe that the laws of physics existed before the big bang- before the big bang, nothing existed.
the laws of physics allow nothing to move faster than the speed of light, and yet the initial explosion must have been travelling well beyond the speed of light, through a vaccuum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by doctrbill, posted 03-08-2002 11:55 PM doctrbill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by RetroCrono, posted 03-09-2002 6:19 AM quicksink has replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 46 (6353)
03-09-2002 12:09 AM


and einstein's principle that the speed of time is relative to the observer can be used in my argument- if there was no observer, than there was no time. time was moving at an infinite pace because nobody could define its speed.

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by joz, posted 03-09-2002 10:34 AM quicksink has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 46 (6354)
03-09-2002 12:15 AM


and how are the laws of physics not instructions?
they were created randomly during the big bang, let us agree on that. they did not exist in a vacuum.
now the moment the universe began (i'm reluctant to say that, as time would have been moving infinitely fast), every piece of energy was governed by these laws. am i wrong about that?
hydrogen formed under these laws. atoms formed under these laws. etc.
then these pieces of matter evolved into the first living beings. the moment a piece of matter made a decision was the moment that time became relative, or actually attained an observable speed.

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by TrueCreation, posted 03-09-2002 1:31 AM quicksink has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 46 (6356)
03-09-2002 12:39 AM


let me put my point this way
>take a rock and throw it into the air so that it hits the surface of a pond. throw it at a 45 degree angle, and the laws of gravity will determine where it lands. throw it at a 50 degree angle and the laws of gravity will ensure that the rock lands somewhere different in the pond.
now gravity determines where the rock lands, but the human determines at what angle the rock has thrown, and what the laws of gravity will be applied to.
now, you are able to pick up this rock because you have a brain and muscles and bones, etc. and these bones were created by the big bang, because from the big bang forward, matter was created and manipulated.
but before there was matter that could do things independently, the only thing that could move an object were the rigid principles of nature. that rocl will only move because when the laws of nature are applied to its position, it moves in such a way. and not only that, from this position, it can only be thrown into the air on one angle, and it can therefore only land in one place.
and that rock was put in the position it was by a previous event, and this previous event occurred do to a previous effect. the ultimate effect is the big bang.

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 46 (6362)
03-09-2002 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by quicksink
03-09-2002 12:15 AM


"they were created randomly during the big bang, let us agree on that. they did not exist in a vacuum."
--Actually the laws of physics are still attained and are fully operational in a vacuum, there is only nothing for these principals to govern. These principals and attributes on the governing of matter and energy does not just collapse when there is no longer something for it to govern.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by quicksink, posted 03-09-2002 12:15 AM quicksink has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by KingPenguin, posted 03-09-2002 1:57 AM TrueCreation has replied

  
KingPenguin
Member (Idle past 7884 days)
Posts: 286
From: Freeland, Mi USA
Joined: 02-04-2002


Message 10 of 46 (6364)
03-09-2002 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by TrueCreation
03-09-2002 1:31 AM


psssssst TC i dont think were allowed in here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by TrueCreation, posted 03-09-2002 1:31 AM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by TrueCreation, posted 03-09-2002 2:11 AM KingPenguin has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 46 (6366)
03-09-2002 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by KingPenguin
03-09-2002 1:57 AM


"psssssst TC i dont think were allowed in here. "
--Oops!
I guess I saw 'rational people only' and forgot the rest, silly me.
--I just couldn't help myself that everyone seemed to be missing such an obvious point.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by KingPenguin, posted 03-09-2002 1:57 AM KingPenguin has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 46 (6368)
03-09-2002 3:45 AM


TC-
please don't be slanderous
"obvious point"
there are plenty of people who believe that the laws of physics were created randomly during the big bang. but then again, the big bang never happened.

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by TrueCreation, posted 03-09-2002 11:39 AM quicksink has not replied

  
RetroCrono
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 46 (6378)
03-09-2002 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by quicksink
03-09-2002 12:06 AM


quote:
Originally posted by quicksink:
everything was predetermined
Hmm, if it was predertimened than what's that say about a God?
Also, quicksink, if no YEC are allowed, than why the heck did you put this in the Great Debate if no one is allowed to debate it? A bit silly don't you think.
You really have to settle down, you've started way to many topics and flood every topic with about 5 posts in a row. It's really detracting from participating in the forums. I can barely get the chance to reply at all. Don't you have anything else to do? You are constantly complaining about getting no replies, than why don't you wait for one. Other people have other things to do you know. So please, do me a favour and SLOW DOWN!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by quicksink, posted 03-09-2002 12:06 AM quicksink has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by quicksink, posted 03-09-2002 6:59 AM RetroCrono has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 46 (6381)
03-09-2002 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by RetroCrono
03-09-2002 6:19 AM


ok- ill slow down- sorry.
as for the god thing, i think you misinterpretted my point. the laws of physics formed randomly, yet the moment they didm time was set, that is, until one piece of matter could voluntarily apply force to another piece of matter. From their, a new course would set in, yet this to could be changed based on another action from life. how long these actions take to have an effect on space and time is unknown.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by RetroCrono, posted 03-09-2002 6:19 AM RetroCrono has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 46 (6382)
03-09-2002 7:04 AM


and finally, i disclude creationists from this topic because their presence is irrelevant. the subject of this topic is based on the assumption that the universe did form with the big bang, so therefore this theory is not being debated.
i am bringing up an issue that is founded on the assumption that the big bang is truth, and you yecs do not agree with that.
if there is a more decent place to put this thread, by all means, i will.

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by doctrbill, posted 03-09-2002 10:48 AM quicksink has not replied
 Message 24 by Cobra_snake, posted 03-09-2002 11:40 AM quicksink has not replied
 Message 44 by compmage, posted 09-06-2002 1:26 PM quicksink has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024