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Author Topic:   Life on Other Planets: Is it a problem for creationists?
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 1 of 101 (66299)
11-13-2003 3:50 PM


(originally posted to Mendy):
On the subject of life on other worlds, I'd be interested in your take on this:
Why We Believe In A Designer!
It's by Ed Babinski, a former creationist. He raises some excellent issues that I'd be interested in seing your response in, concerning the universe and other planets. Also, from his introduction to this section:
quote:
But all kidding aside, let's get to the big questions. The biggest one is, "Are there intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos?" The cosmos as it is presently known, contains over 50 billion galaxies, each galaxy containing between 100 to 200 billion stars. Recent advances in telescopic magnification have allowed astronomers to detect rings of matter and planets that circle stars other than our own. It is conceivable that intelligent beings exist, or have existed in the distant past, or will exist in the future, on planets other than the earth. Are we the only intelligent beings who have evolved in the cosmos' vast dimensions of space and time?
Even a "Biblical creationist" might find himself unable to believe that we are the only intelligent beings "God created" in a cosmos of countless blazing stars and (who knows how many) planetary bodies? So much cosmic "real estate" going to waste. Doesn't sound very "purposeful" does it?
Yet, if intelligent beings exist on other planets, how are they going to react to the "Biblical creation account?" Are they going to believe that the cosmos was created in "six days" as measured from one planet's perspective, the earth's? Such beings might well wonder why the cosmos wasn't created based on the length of a "day" on their own planet, rather than ours.
Neither are they going to believe that five out of the "six" days of creation, or, five sixths of the "creation period" was focused solely on the earth, during which its seas, dry land and sky, and the plants and animals on it, were created. The "rest" of the cosmos with it's 50 billion galaxies, and it's unknown multitude of planets, including the one these other beings live on, took only "one day" out of "six" to create? They'd be on the floor laughing at such earth-centered viewpoints in the very first chapter of the Bible. Only one planet, the earth, took five sixths of God's creation time to complete? No intelligent being inhabiting another planet is going to believe that!
Or, how about this for a "worst case" scenario after meeting a technologically advanced being from another planet: (Being from another planet speaking with Billy Graham's son) "So, you say, five sixths of God's `creation time' was spent on your pitiful little planet full of natural disasters and turmoil and idiocy, and God only spent one sixth of that time creating the rest of the cosmos, including what was to become our vast pan-galactic civilization whose history stretches back before the first pitiful little Biblical book was scrawled on goat skin parchments?"
Hence my next big question, ARE THERE CREATIONISTS ON OTHER PLANETS? Do they quote from a book somewhat like our earth-centered book of Genesis? And, supposing that the name of their planet is "Zontar," does their book read something like this...
In the beginning God created the heavens and ZONTAR, and the spirit of God moved on the face of the waters OF ZONTAR and God said let there be light, and there was the first evening and morning. And God separated the waters and caused dry land to appear ON ZONTAR, and there was a second evening and morning. And God made the land bring forth green plants and fruit trees ON ZONTAR, and there was a third evening and morning. And God made TWO GREAT LIGHTS, one to rule the day ON ZONTAR, and one to rule the night ON ZONTAR, and he made the stars also, and set them in the sky to light ZONTAR and for signs and seasons, and there was a fourth evening and morning. And God made animals ON ZONTAR, and there was a fifth evening and morning. And God made beings IN HIS OWN IMAGE, and he visited them in the garden where He and they left slimy trials as they moved and talked to each other via their antennae, and there was a sixth evening and morning. And on the seventh day God "rested" from creating the heavens and ZONTAR.
Of course, we earthlings, being raised on the Bible, would know that God needed to "rest" after creating ZONTAR, so He could regain enough energy to trek to another part of the cosmos (near one of those stars he'd created "to light ZONTAR") and create a place called "earth." Once there, He had to "separate light and darkness again," "separate the waters," make dry land appear, create plants and fruit trees, make two more "great lights" to "rule the day and night" on that planet, create animals, and create beings in his own image, this time more ape-like than the intelligent snail-like beings of ZONTAR.
Then, after creating the heavens and the EARTH, God "rested" a second time. (The first time God "rested" was after he'd created ZONTAR, remember?)
P.S. - I think there may have been some threads that I missed when I was really busy that we had been chatting in before. If you can think of any, just bump them and I'll get back to you.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 2 of 101 (66387)
11-13-2003 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rei
11-13-2003 3:50 PM


'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rei, posted 11-13-2003 3:50 PM Rei has not replied

  
Will_Drotar
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 101 (67554)
11-18-2003 8:14 PM


The 'problem' is more for theists in general.
Life hasn't yet been discovered on other planets. It's unreasonable to assume that it will be too, without any further evidence. What we rely on so far is evidence, and right now there is no support for life elsewhere- and it's even less reasonable to assume that the life elsewhere will be intelligent.
Even if there is life on other planets, it poses no theological problem. Intelligent life would. TTYL Jesus loves you!

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Rei, posted 11-18-2003 8:33 PM Will_Drotar has replied
 Message 6 by Quetzal, posted 11-19-2003 11:56 AM Will_Drotar has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 4 of 101 (67560)
11-18-2003 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Will_Drotar
11-18-2003 8:14 PM


So, how does *no* life on other planets fit in with a theistic world view? From what we can see so far, it looks as if planets are actually quite commonplace around stars. There are *hundreds of billions* of stars in our galaxy, which is one of tens of thousands of galaxies. Would God create such vast galactic real estate - most of it completely unobservable by humans - for naught?
Good point, about the distinction between life on other planets, and intelligent life on other planets. But again: would he create life for naught?
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Will_Drotar, posted 11-18-2003 8:14 PM Will_Drotar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Dr Jack, posted 11-19-2003 11:52 AM Rei has replied
 Message 8 by Will_Drotar, posted 11-19-2003 3:17 PM Rei has replied
 Message 11 by Lizard Breath, posted 11-20-2003 12:53 PM Rei has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 5 of 101 (67719)
11-19-2003 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Rei
11-18-2003 8:33 PM


If you're going to invoke an infinite creator, scale doesn't really matter, does it? One planet, two planets, a hundred-billion-and-seventy-six planets? What's the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Rei, posted 11-18-2003 8:33 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 6 of 101 (67722)
11-19-2003 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Will_Drotar
11-18-2003 8:14 PM


Even if there is life on other planets, it poses no theological problem. Intelligent life would.
Probably a truism. Didn't Giordino Bruno get burned at the stake for merely speculating about the possibility?

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Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 7 of 101 (67733)
11-19-2003 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Jack
11-19-2003 11:52 AM


Did you read the post in the introduction to this thread? It makes the geocentric biblical creation account unrealistic.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dr Jack, posted 11-19-2003 11:52 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Will_Drotar
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 101 (67755)
11-19-2003 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Rei
11-18-2003 8:33 PM


Let's stick with what we know- there are billions of other planets and galaxies.
Now why? A YEC might have difficulty with that. But from a theistic evolutionist standpoint, it's simply a side effect of the Big Bang. How so? The universe displays homogenity. If God created our planet via condensation of stellar gases and matter into the sun, which eventually would get enough mass to undergo nucleosynthesis. One of the effects of GR is the prediction of frame bending. Naturally, as matter fell into the sun, SOME of it (in our galaxy, roughly less than 1 percent)would get caught along the orbit of it in it's angular momentum. These rings of matter eventually condensed then.
Seeing that what caused the sun and the other galaxies to condense was simply put, a lot of matter, why wouldn't there be the same effect IN ALL DIRECTIONS? The trait of homogenity would mean that if matter condensed in this portion of the universe, and likewise there's matter expanding in ALL directions, wouldn't all directions then evidence the same effect?
Now to say there's life on other planets- let's not get ahead of ourselves. If there is, God ordained it. I'm really a traditional Reformationist Christian- I believe that not a speck of dust falls without God knowing about it and God ordaining it. If there's life on other planets, God made it via natural processes.
The issue of intelligent life... I'm not going to solve a problem that we don't know exists. If there is, God made it. I don't ask the questions man, I just submit and obey. TTYL Jesus loves you!
BTW, I read a book called The Five Ages of the Universe that went into great depth about this. It's EXTREMELY speculative, but an interesting read nonetheless. Actually, one of the authors is like a few years older than I. Man, I hope that when I'm 21 I'll be that smart. And famous. That'd be nice too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Rei, posted 11-18-2003 8:33 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Rei, posted 11-19-2003 3:25 PM Will_Drotar has replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 9 of 101 (67760)
11-19-2003 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Will_Drotar
11-19-2003 3:17 PM


Interesting. I can see how it wouldn't cause a problem for those who believe in theistic evolution; however, there still seems to be a problem for those who believe in a literal reading of Genesis (which was the original issue raised).
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Will_Drotar, posted 11-19-2003 3:17 PM Will_Drotar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Will_Drotar, posted 11-19-2003 3:28 PM Rei has not replied

  
Will_Drotar
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 101 (67762)
11-19-2003 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Rei
11-19-2003 3:25 PM


They've got bigger issues than this man.

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Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 6695 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 11 of 101 (67995)
11-20-2003 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Rei
11-18-2003 8:33 PM


Good point Rei,
When Jesus fed the multitude by creating bread and fish from one boy's lunch, he didn't create enough to bury the whole crowd waist deep in food and then say "Behold the power of God!". He only created enough to fit the need for the day to give the people enough energy to make it back to their homes. He also commanded the leftovers to be gathered which says to me that God is not wasteful and is very purposeful in what he does.
So to say that 50 billion gallaxies times 400 billion stars (I assume most gallaxies will be similiar in construction if the mechanics for their creation parellel) per galaxy would be a waste of energy for a God who bothered to collect some shreds of bread and fish heads (I would not have eaten the heads if I had been there).
From an evolutionist perspective it seems logical to me that there are as many stars as there is, in fact it would not be troubling to me if there turns out to be even more. But from a creationist perspective the volume of stars is perplexing if made by the same God as Jesus claimed to be. So not only do the other stars in general have a purpose, but based on the collection of the food scraps example, each and every star and surrounding planet out there must have a specific purpose if it holds to God's own example given of himself.
If this issue would ever be rectified within the bounds of the Creationist model, an MP3 sermon CD of it would probably outsell Michael Jackson's Thriller album. (We have to talk about MJ since he's in the news today)

This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 12 of 101 (67998)
11-20-2003 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Lizard Breath
11-20-2003 12:53 PM


And I also see Christ as not wanting to waste food, but also Christ doing a lot on the cross, just for humans. So I can infact whole heartedly believe he would even create a universe to make us and keep the left overs.
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 11-20-2003]

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Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 101 (68018)
11-20-2003 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by mike the wiz
11-20-2003 1:00 PM


Oh no! Not 'Food of the Gods' again?

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DaVx0r
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 101 (69917)
11-29-2003 6:20 PM


This does not threaten the creationist beliefs at all.
Our god has created many, many worlds and galaxies. Earth, however, was his main creation and also first creation. There may be life on other planets, but if there is, god created it, therefore this is not a threat at all, and whoever this guy is pretty unintelligent to even think this would be a threat.

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 15 of 101 (69920)
11-29-2003 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by DaVx0r
11-29-2003 6:20 PM


There may be life on other planets, but if there is, god created it, therefore this is not a threat at all, and whoever this guy is pretty unintelligent to even think this would be a threat.
So, did Jesus die for their sins, too? Or did they have their own alien Jesus? Or maybe they never ate the fruit, etc? So there's no sin on their planet - but then, if sin entered the entire universe because of Adam and Eve, do they then have sin for no fault of their own?
It's difficult to countenance a god that would condemn all intellegent life for the actions of two people on one planet. Extraterrestrial life puts some wrinkles in your theology; I'm surprised you haven't thought of them before.

This message is a reply to:
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