Big Bang...How Did it Happen?

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Again, by definition, there must be a cause!

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Not when you're talking about the fundamentals of the universe. You're arguing for a universe with no absolute base - some kind of infinite levels of depth worth of physics.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

I think he's just being circular. How does he know that all effects have causes? Because all effects have causes. How does he respond to counterexamples of effects with no cause? They must have causes, because all effects have causes.

General Nazort You believe in God. What caused God?

Ok, I realize that this is very rocket like, but I have to say it. You are not going to get him to give you a coherent answer for the question. I've never seen any creationist give an answer for it. They usually just dodge the question or give an answer so nonsensical that nobody could understand what the hell it means.

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The Laminator
B ULLS HITFor goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

Darth Mal LOL Quite possibly but once in a long while a lightbulb sometimes will go on.
The question need not be answered directly and frankly I delight in the cat and mouse of it all.Having been in confused states of mind in my past{and sadly doing the slow dance into senility these days} it is something that allows me to get a perspective on the things I could have studied or the paths I could have and wished I did take.I have been fortunate in my life to have not done the things that some of my contempararies have done.I have lived through drug abuse of my own choosing a failed first marriage and some chance slaps in the face by life that damn near broke me.Some of my friends were not so fortunate. I delight in having kept my mind intact enough to be able to slowly do investigation of the world through the scientific process.
What I really need is to get my math levels up to manipulate formulas so that I can interpret the physical meaning of the relations within the math.I am grasping the basics of relativity and I am actualy having a blast as I "see" the way things relate to the physical within the formulas.I am thinking on getting some books by Martin Gardner and see if I can do the equivalent of a marathon mentally.Thanks for the concern Darth I appreciste it, but you operate with a mind that has not been damaged yet. May that always be the case.

I agree with you General, I also agree with the atheist/agnostics.
I have been discussing and debating causality on this board for some time. Excellent points get made on both sides of the issue. I understand how one could expect a cause, and I understand how one could expect no cause. The point is at this time it is unknowable. What we do know is that something happened. Whether it was 'caused', or a fluctuation of something that always has been does not matter to me. If it was caused then one could say 'God did it' if he wants, if it was uncaused one could say God is uncaused and through his eternal presence existance of the universe became manifested. Or one could say the universe just is and has no creator. In other words it is simply a matter of personal opinion and or faith depending on whether you are a atheist/agnostic or theist. Of course this is just my opinion as well and could be equally full of shit.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Nothing caused God. God has always been. Only an effect needs a cause - God is not an effect. Change requires a cause - God does not change. A cause is needed to make something come into existence - but God has always existed. He is eternal. If everything needed a cause, the chain would stretch on to infinity. But everything does not need a cause - every effect needs a cause. I don't feel like I am dodging the question or giving an incoherent answer - I honestly believe this and think it makes perfect sense.Sidelined - I am sorry to hear about the hard times you have gone through in life. I admire your ability to pull through and move on. Good luck in your studies in math and such.1.61803, thanks for your comments. However I still feel that God is the best explanation for the existence of the universe. If it has always existed why does the big bang suggest a beginning? Did a fluctuation cause the eternal universe to explode in the big bang? Then what caused the fluctuation? Is the universe cyclic? String theory suggests it may be, but these models are still being worked on and are far from being complete. To get around this it seems like ahtiests simply say "the universe came into existence for no reason, with no underlying cause." It seems to me that they deny the law of casuality to escape a universe created by God. But this denial is always temporary - in other things they assume casuality holds true.

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Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent!)

What law of causality?

General, the universe could very well be the natural extention of other phenomenon outside of human understanding, such as multiple dimentions converging on eachother (hence the BB.) Someone who does not believe in a God are well within reason to assume no cause. That does not mean they are right. Just as you are able to suggest that God is being itself. String theory is one way of merging / reconciling gravity and accounting for why humans observe the things we do such as why reality is quantized, or why things cant be smaller than Plankes length. etc... Begging the question of causality will not sway a atheist no more than saying there is no cauality of the universe will convince you. It is pointless to even try and convince someone who does not believe there can be a supernatural explanation when nature is considered to be the source of it's own existance.
In other words believe what you will and be happy. And leave the abyss of uncertainty to us agnostics/atheist.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Hehehe. I told you so.

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The Laminator
B ULLS HITFor goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

The one that says every effect must have a cause.Oh wait, you are saying that law doesn't really apply.The text that you are reading right now just popped into existence for no reason.

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Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent!)

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Nothing caused God. God has always been.

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Ok. To sum up:1) We're not supposed to believe in a basic set of fundamental rules which "just are". However
2) We *are* supposed to believe in an infinitely more complex - to the point of sentience - being that "just is".Thank you for clearing that up.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

LOL. I am so confused now I do not know what to believe, ....or is that what NOT to believe.. oh darn now this circular reasoning is making me dizzy.

What the frog meant is that there is no such thing as law of causality. It's all in your head.

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The Laminator
B ULLS HITFor goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

How did you come to believe that it applies to the universe?