Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,818 Year: 3,075/9,624 Month: 920/1,588 Week: 103/223 Day: 1/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Avida and Irreducible Complexity
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 16 of 22 (183233)
02-05-2005 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Loudmouth
01-31-2005 6:07 PM


Text of duplicate post deleted. --Admin
This message has been edited by Admin, 02-05-2005 09:05 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Loudmouth, posted 01-31-2005 6:07 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 17 of 22 (183252)
02-05-2005 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Parsimonious_Razor
02-01-2005 12:28 AM


I'm more responding in general to the thread, but I felt impelled to post this message after reading this comment:
Parsimonious_Razor writes:
Most of it relied on arguing that a computer simulation is not biology and the outcome was "predetermined" by the core of the program.
We tend to forget the tasks we complete and remember those left unfinished, and so I still remember the last time I discussed this topic. It was with Fred Williams, and his last post on the topic was Message 246. Fred first objected that evolution simulation programs included the outcomes within the code, and later that genetic algorithm programs do not emulate evolution. We were making progress by discussing actual programs (see Fixation of genetics - program) when, can you believe it, Fred disappeared!
About Avida, if memory serves correctly, this effort has been going on for a long time. After all the subsequent efforts that have attempted to simulate evolution in ways more analogous to actual biology, I was surprised that the Discover article didn't give much space to any of the other efforts beyond Avida. It's no knock on Avida, but it began when computers were slower and memory was a scarce commodity, and so because it evolves computer programs instead of simulated organisms it is less directly applicable because analogs must be drawn between, for example, what constitutes metabolism in a computer program versus an actual biological organism. This has no impact on its use as a research vehicle, but as evidence for Creationists that evolution can evolve new and novel structures and mechanisms it must be admitted that it is less than ideal. The additional layer of abstraction makes the task of comprehension much more difficult for those already opposed to the concept of evolution.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 02-01-2005 12:28 AM Parsimonious_Razor has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 22 (183260)
02-05-2005 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by IrishRockhound
02-02-2005 8:05 AM


cease and deist god
I was going to jump on you for that (see sig), but see that it is already covered.
there is some {valid} discussion of just how many US founding fathers were bonafide deists or just free thinkers with a lot of deist influence from those heady times. Washington is questionable (but no christian), Jefferson is borderline (and no christian), Paine is probably the best known bonafide deist, and Ethan Allen lesser so. There are others as well but they are lesser figures in americn history and had less to do with the founding aspect.
For a common list see
List of deists - Wikipedia
For some current Deist thought see
http://www.deism.com/
http://dynamicdeism.org/deistalliance/deist_alliance.htm
http://www.deism.org/frames.htm
These seem to put some "organization" to the belief, but I feel it is a belief founded in and on mental anarchy.
Personnally I see it more as [{essence of spirit}\{being that is not being}] became the universe, with as much diversity and opportunity for diversity as possible, a universe primed for life, intelligence and surprises, designed to become more than it could be designed to be. Rather like this program ...
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by IrishRockhound, posted 02-02-2005 8:05 AM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by IrishRockhound, posted 02-07-2005 9:03 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 19 of 22 (183263)
02-05-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parsimonious_Razor
01-30-2005 3:00 PM


IC >< ID
IC (irreducible complexity) has been disproved as a marker of something that cannot evolve naturally. This is just another example of the failure of the IC concept.
unfortunately that does not disprove ID (irrepressible deification?), as they have (yet) to put forward a {pass\fail} test for that concept (as opposed to theory).
:sigh:

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 01-30-2005 3:00 PM Parsimonious_Razor has not replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 20 of 22 (183663)
02-07-2005 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
02-05-2005 11:08 AM


Re: cease and deist god
quote:
I was going to jump on you for that (see sig), but see that it is already covered.
there is some {valid} discussion of just how many US founding fathers were bonafide deists or just free thinkers with a lot of deist influence from those heady times. Washington is questionable (but no christian), Jefferson is borderline (and no christian), Paine is probably the best known bonafide deist, and Ethan Allen lesser so. There are others as well but they are lesser figures in americn history and had less to do with the founding aspect.
Huh?
I was making a joke, because you said our founding fathers and I'm not American. Hence the name "IrishRockhound".
To be honest, I don't actually care whether the American founding fathers were deist or not. I'm also not a deist - I just happen to find the notion of a Lazy Cosmic Programmer funny.
So what were you going to jump on me for?
The Rockhound

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2005 11:08 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 02-08-2005 10:26 PM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 21 of 22 (183674)
02-07-2005 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parsimonious_Razor
01-30-2005 3:00 PM


Does the program calculate the differential reproductive success of organisms, as part of the operation of the digital environment (as opposed to calculating it just as output for the user)?
If so it demonstrates the evolutionary principle of natural selection, if not it doesn't demonstrate natural selection, as commonly defined.
I take it that this program has many calls to the random function. As the randomfunction is the computerequivalent to decision, it would more so demonstrate intelligent design. It depends a bit on if or not the random function has a central place in the program.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 01-30-2005 3:00 PM Parsimonious_Razor has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 22 (184022)
02-08-2005 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by IrishRockhound
02-07-2005 9:03 AM


Re: cease and deist god
for not knowing what a deist was. caught the joke, just added some comments. enjoy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by IrishRockhound, posted 02-07-2005 9:03 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024